Buying Advice Old utility tractor vs. newer compact tractor?

mo1 · May 24, 2014

MHarryE said:
I have both kinds. Like the treadle Kubota, survive the twin pedal JD without any real problem except getting stuck in the chest with branches because I can't work the twin pedal as quickly. Wouldn't be a make or break item. JD had direct injection before Kubota and after being surprised how much my Kubota L5640 could suck down under max load I checked Rhine fuel consumption specs and found the Deere would have whupped the Kubota. Still I rarely see CUT drivers run hard enough to use much fuel. People brag about less than 1 gallon per hour fuel usage. Go to the manufacturer's numbers and they're running about 25% power. 7' tiller sounds large for the size tractor you want. In our soil my 7' King Kutter is all my L5740 can handle but our soil sucks and in SW MO you are probably talking cotton land type soil that almost tills itself.

The official documentation for his 7' tiller doesn't list PTO HP but the reseller he bought it from states that the PTO HP range is 25-50. The soil in central MO is pretty thick and heavy and full of clay. He runs the tiller with the 1700 rpm economy PTO setting on his 5083E and the tractor doesn't know it's back there. Granted a 5083E even at 1700 rpm probably still makes twice the PTO HP of the compact units I am looking at. The soil in SW MO is thin and full of gravel so likely even easier to till up.

I'll have to do some butt time to see if I prefer a treadle or a two-pedal control.

jimpen · May 25, 2014

The other consideration if you buy new is a backhoe. Buying later can be expensive.

But if you are going to dig out tree stumps I would suggest it.

Fallon · May 25, 2014

I went with a Kubota L3200 over the equivalent John Deere, a few more features & better build quality in my opinion. Not much, but enough (turning brakes, 3 range HST instead of 2, folding ROPS, etc.).

My 3pt is a little rough, but liveable, the 1 01 series I poked at had a smooth hitch & insignificant cosmetic changes from my L3200 in addition to the tier 4 emissions stuff. I haven't heard of any 01s having a rough hitch, but I'm not sure if it's settled that they finally fixed things or not yet. It is an issue, but for most people it's not that bad of an issue if they even notice it. Also, it only shows up with an implement on the lift when you raise it in small incriments, it usually doesn't present with no weight on the hitch.

I got R4 tires to minimize carrying capacity & field damage. Generally I've been happy with them. The dealer (just opened up) didn't have the pumps & fluid to load the tires, so I got it unloaded. I had ballast issues with the loader & was traction limited. Dealer got the stuff in & I finally got around to taking it in to get the tires loaded. I now only have traction issues in mud (the compromise of R4s) and am mostly HP limited (kind of wish I'd gotten a L3800 sometimes) and the loader is solid even if I occasionally lift something without proper ballast on the back (which you should have even with loaded tires).

I still may end up selling the L3200 off here at some point, but that mostly has to do with not having a cab & me wanting a Grand or other pimped out tractor compared to the economy model (and can afford it). If/when it comes to that I'll be looking at Green as well as both colors of Orange (Kioti too).

Marveltone · May 26, 2014

mo1, sounds like a lot of guys are trying to talk you into hydrostatic drive. My mower has hydro, but all three of my tractors have gears, including the one with the loader. With 12 forward gears and 4 reverse, plus shuttle shift, it does rather nicely. Hydro would be nice for snow blowing and some loader work, but to me, it's not a deal breaker, as I prefer gears for mowing, brush cutting (same thing?), raking hay, and ground engaging field work. I don't regret my gears.

In the end, you know what you're familiar with and want to operate. Get what will fit you, not someone else.

Joe

Cherokee140 · May 27, 2014

I looked at both gear and fluid drive, on one of the machines I looked at IIRC the hydro was over $2k more. I also had every tractor before being gear driven (8n, JD 70 JD 650). But now that I have the new tractor I really do think that the Hydro is much more handy for tight work, and I am in and out of trees a great deal. I do not remember if you are trying to squeeze into tight areas or not, but to have the ability to have the RPM's up and pushing very slow with the bucket ripping out little trees and moving around trees you want to save is very handy.

I also did not think it was a deal breaker, but I can say it sure is much more easy to do it with the hydro....Just getting the 650 in to blade away some of the dug up trees/vines/dirt/mess in general is harder to do with the clutch and such.

Cherokee140 · May 27, 2014

I looked at both gear and fluid drive, on one of the machines I looked at IIRC the hydro was over $2k more. I also had every tractor before being gear driven (8n, JD 70 JD 650). But now that I have the new tractor I really do think that the Hydro is much more handy for tight work, and I am in and out of trees a great deal. I do not remember if you are trying to squeeze into tight areas or not, but to have the ability to have the RPM's up and pushing very slow with the bucket ripping out little trees and moving around trees you want to save is very handy.

I also did not think it was a deal breaker, but I can say it sure is much more easy to do it with the hydro....Just getting the 650 in to blade away some of the dug up trees/vines/dirt/mess in general is harder to do with the clutch and such.

mo1 · May 27, 2014

I did some more looking and simple availability of the different kinds of transmissions will likely dictate what I get. Gear transmissions don't even really start to appear in tractors until you get into the medium-frame compact sized units (Deere 3 series, Kubota L, NH/LS 3xxx series, Massey 17xx series). Even then they're not all that common. Kubota and Massey in particular really gimp their gear-drive tractors as their sub-40 hp gear units do not have a live PTO which is a definite deal breaker when my main job will be mowing. However all of the hydro units have a live/independent PTO.

I did some more talking with my wife and also briefly poked around a few of the tractor dealerships in my current area (haven't moved yet.) She wants to put in quite a few fruit trees (mainly apples) in the fenced-in "horsy" area that I would need to be able to maneuver around. They would be placed close together in a line like in an orchard so I would just need to be able to avoid the line of trees with the tractor. I would also need to be able to maneuver between the garden area and its fence as well. She is not a fan of getting two machines to do the mowing (ZTR to do the finish mowing and a tractor to rough-cut the "horsy" area) due to cost, storage space, and it seemed wasteful to have a tractor to just run the rough-cut mower for maybe a few dozen hours a year. So we'll get one compact tractor. I am thinking probably a little smaller rather than a little bigger due to maneuverability reasons.

There are three tractor dealerships in my current area I poked around at when they were closed for the weekend. They carry NH, Case IH, and JD/Kubota. The NH and CaseIH dealerships had no compact units and essentially only carry 350 hp and up center-articulated 4wd and tracked tractors. The Deere dealership mainly carried Gators and lawnmowers but did have a few compact units out there- a 1023R, a 2032R, and a cabbed 3720 and 4720. They did not have any of the JD 3E series units although the measurements and weight of the 3032E/3038Es are very close to that of the 2032R. They did have pretty well every Kubota currently made. I am thinking something around the physical size of that JD 2032R or the B series Kubotas would be the right size. The smaller L series Kubotas (L3301/L3901) pretty much the same physical size as the B series units but are considerably heavier.

k0ua · Jun 2, 2014

There is a NH and Kioti dealer in Rogersville, and an LS dealer near Marshfield.

Creekpaddler · Jun 23, 2014

I've bought 4 used tractors of various sizes for different needs. I don't mind buying one that needs some work if the price is right. Even if I put $$$ into them, I've still come out ahead each time compared to buying new. That approach may or may not work for you.

If you buy a used one, a major consideration should be availability of parts. When I had my IH 2400A 2WD FEL tractor, there came a time when parts were difficult - or impossible - to find. It was time to upgrade so I bought a used JD 5225 4WD FEL 56hp (45 hp PTO). I've been very happy with it and parts are easy to find.

It can be difficult to find one "perfect tractor" to do everything you need to get done. If it were me, I would determine how much I want to spend, prioritize the tasks I need to do, then look for a tractor best suited for the most frequent ones. And available time, especially for mowing, would be a factor in my decision. Example: For 12 years I mowed 7 acres with my tractor and a 72" PTO mower, but it took too long. The grass grew faster than I could cut it. This year I shopped for a fast front-deck mower and bought a used JD F925. And I still have my 5225 for all the other jobs.

Texasjohn is right about the FEL. Once you get one, you'll wonder how you got by without it.

Russ7127 · Jun 24, 2014

I decided to purchase a used tractor because of the price savings. I went with a Kubota 3650 GST. The GST (glide shift transmission) is almost as good as a hydrostatic transmission for most work. You can change gears without stopping. Shopping for a used tractor takes much more time to find the options and price you want. Usually you wind up give up some of the options you might like to have. some of the more useful options like third function valve, rear remote hydraulic, and cab can be added later but they be come very expensive. You will need the evaluate which option you really need.
Mowing the lawn with a tractor big enough to use in the woods is questionable. A riding lawn mower and a tractor might be a better choice.

woordpecker · Jun 29, 2014

Hi:

16 years ago we did what you're about to do. Moved to a larger acreage Country location with grass cutting, and snow removal on a 1000' driveway requiring immediate attention. Somehow, we survived the first year with only a small J-D riding mower and a cheesy little front blade.

First thing discovered was the countless number of things needing LIFTING. By the end of these 7 pages it appears you've figured out a FEL is necessary - you NEED to fix that firmly in your head. The difference between human lifting power and any sort of FEL power is ridiculous. Gotta have the loader.

Second, a huge amount of time has been spent in these pages discussing size and power demands of rear mowers, along with gear vs. hydro trannies. For the immediate and foreseeable future, your biggest on-going problem is weekly grass cutting of a fairly small area. Forget adding the cost of anything like a ZTR mower. You can quickly and easily resolve your immediate needs with a 54-60" mid-mount mower deck requiring five minutes to install or remove, with or without bucket attached.

AFTER you've lived there a while, and had time to figure out what comes next in long range plans, THEN consider adding a back hoe attachment for tree removal. Nothing removes trees as effectively. Btw: you can probably add a backhoe for roughly what you'd pay for a decent quality ZTR mower.

We got very lucky early on - buying a J-D 4100 Compact 4 wd, with dual range tranny, industrial tires, mid-mount mower deck, Cat. 1 hitch, and PTO at the start. Our bucket will only lift a rated 800 lbs, BUT saved thousands of dollars in landscaping fees. For most snow removal a front or rear blade is adequate, and in heavy snowfalls the bucket gets the call.

Ideally you probably want/need a bit more horsepower than our 4100 (perhaps the modern equivalent of a 4200), but in the interim remember your Dad's equipment can be available for any immediate work or emergencies.

Our point: you need something that comfortably resolves your immediate issues/problems, and assuming you aren't retired, still allows you a life, and/or career. The things you need right now are a mower, the loader, and a Cat 1 hitch for add-ons.

Hope this might clear up some of your confusion, and good luck with your new life. You are going to LOVE it.~

Cheers, Woordpecker

BenjiMac · Jun 30, 2014

"I am looking for a recommendation on a tractor for property maintenance."

I have a big old Massey Ferguson 165 tractor with FEL and several attachments.
It runs and is very strong, but is not at all easy to operate.
I recently drove a new John Deere in the dealer parking lot, and it is SO much easier to run. More like a car than a tractor, but is in fact a good strong tractor.
The only reason I didn't buy it immediately is I don't have $30K to spend on it right now.

My recommendation: Try a new tractor in the size range you need, apparently 35-40 hp to run the tiller, just to get an idea what it is like.
Then consider buying an older model that costs a lot less. See how much harder it is to operate; may be no harder at all depending on age.
Make sure the brakes are working as they should. "Wet" brakes are much better than "dry" brakes.
At least synchromesh transmission makes it possible to shift while moving.
I do not know what years they added these modern features.
If you would rather not spend money, and especially if you don't have significant hills to work on, the older tractor will get the job done.
The finest moderate size real farm tractors cost about as much new as a new car, so you may be able to afford it if you want to.

mo1 · Aug 15, 2014

I made the move to the new place a few weeks ago and got a much better idea of what I was really up against.

- The "horsey" area is grossly overgrown with chest-high weeds. There are large rocks, stumps, and the ground is very uneven to boot. It will take a good amount of work to get it to be usable as a garden/orchard. It will need rough cut while being very careful not to hit rocks and stumps, the rocks removed, the stumps dug out or ground down, and the dirt leveled out and tilled. I've not touched it yet.

- The lawn is not too big. My dad gave me one of his several 22" push mowers and I can mow the yard area in about an hour or so. Not too terribly bad. The ~1100 feet of ditch however takes forever to mow as in places it gets up to 30-40 feet wide. Overall it takes me about 3.5 hours to mow with a pushmower- and that's not including the garden/orchard area as I've not touched it yet.

- The driveway is about 40 yards of gravel. The last 5 yards near the road needs some loader/blade work.

- There are two outbuildings, a 20x20 concrete-floored steel shop building and a single-car semi-permanent ("portable") detached garage. They were built on gravel pads at the edge of the woods and now are becoming part of the woods.

I did a lot of looking at regional dealer inventory and classified ads after I moved for ~30 hp MFWD compacts with a bucket. I didn't see much besides essentially new compacts listing for essentially new prices, subcompacts where the owner decided he needed a larger tractor (especially JD 2305/1023/1026 and Kubota BXes), and the typical assortment of loader-less Ford 2000s/3000s and 15 hp 1980s Kubotas. I saw a local ad for a year-unknown MF 1030 MFWD with ag tires, I'm guessing a mid-1990s vintage Woods 165 loader, and a fairly new 5' box blade for a very reasonable price so I went and looked at it. The SN came out to be a 1987 model and it was in quite good shape for a 27-year-old tractor with about 3500 hours. Fired right up, no smoke, no leaks, everything worked as it should. I pick it up tomorrow morning, where its first job when it gets home will be to lift a 6 foot rebranded Befco rear finish mower out of my pickup bed.

terryknight · Aug 16, 2014

those older MF compacts were heavy duty little tractors but the engine is very hard to gt parts for nowadays

mo1 · Aug 17, 2014

Pictures will of course be forthcoming. We got about an inch of rain yesterday afternoon and overnight so all I got to do so far is unload the tractor from the trailer, drop the box blade off in the garage, use the loader to pick the finish mower out of the back of my pickup, hook it to the 3-point, and then park it in the garage. The lighting in my garage isn't great so I'll wait until I can take the tractor outside before I get pictures. I also will be changing all of the fluids and lubricating everything as well, which fortunately I can do in my garage when it's soggy out.

mo1 · Sep 8, 2014

I've had my tractor for a few weeks and attacked some of the things I mentioned I wanted to do earlier. Here's how it went:

1. I used the loader and a log chain to remove some 6x6 wooden fenceposts and 2x6 fence rails with the loader as the original owner had a calf chute set up between the two pens, and only a 5' wide entry gate in the smaller pen. I had to nudge/rock a few of them as some were buried 4' deep in the ground and I couldn't just pull them straight up on the first yank like one of my Dad's tractors would have been able to. In the end the tractor did a good job on this and I am very glad I had the loader.

2. I rough cut the two donkey pens with my Dad's 5' Bush Hog. He put both the tiller and mower on the trailer and thus I had to use the loader and a log chain to remove those as well. There were 6 about two foot diameter half-rotted stumps and some old split firewood hidden amongst the chest-high ragweed and devil's walking stick. I steered around the stumps and the tractor had no trouble mowing at a normal speed. Apart from the stumps the area isn't as rough and ugly as I had thought now that I can actually see the ground and not mountains of ragweed. The 1030L is sure more maneuverable than any of my Dad's tractors, I'll tell you that much.

3. I used the 7' King Kutter tiller to till up about a 30x50 area in the smaller pen for a garden. The 1030L handled it fine in its lowest gear (0.4 MPH if I remember correctly) and operating at full width and depth. Going much faster caused the engine to bog a little. My verdict on the tiller is that my tractor can handle it but a 6' one would be a much better fit if somebody has a similarly-powered tractor (23 PTO HP) and is looking at buying themselves a tiller.

4. I got a 72" rear discharge finish mower for cutting the lawn. It does a pretty good job and it's a good fit for the tractor. It excels in cutting the thousand or so feet of road frontage as it's a nice long straight shot. It's a little less handy near the buildings but not too awful. I think I should be able to use it in the ex-horsey area too.

newbury · Sep 9, 2014

mo1 said:
Pictures will of course be forthcoming.<snip>

WELL??

mo1 said:
I've had my tractor for a few weeks and attacked some of the things I mentioned I wanted to do earlier. Here's how it went:

1. I used the loader and a log chain to remove some 6x6 wooden fenceposts and 2x6 fence rails with the loader as the original owner had a calf chute set up between the two pens, and only a 5' wide entry gate in the smaller pen. I had to nudge/rock a few of them as some were buried 4' deep in the ground and I couldn't just pull them straight up on the first yank like one of my Dad's tractors would have been able to. In the end the tractor did a good job on this and I am very glad I had the loader.

2. I rough cut the two donkey pens with my Dad's 5' Bush Hog. He put both the tiller and mower on the trailer and thus I had to use the loader and a log chain to remove those as well. There were 6 about two foot diameter half-rotted stumps and some old split firewood hidden amongst the chest-high ragweed and devil's walking stick. I steered around the stumps and the tractor had no trouble mowing at a normal speed. Apart from the stumps the area isn't as rough and ugly as I had thought now that I can actually see the ground and not mountains of ragweed. The 1030L is sure more maneuverable than any of my Dad's tractors, I'll tell you that much.

3. I used the 7' King Kutter tiller to till up about a 30x50 area in the smaller pen for a garden. The 1030L handled it fine in its lowest gear (0.4 MPH if I remember correctly) and operating at full width and depth. Going much faster caused the engine to bog a little. My verdict on the tiller is that my tractor can handle it but a 6' one would be a much better fit if somebody has a similarly-powered tractor (23 PTO HP) and is looking at buying themselves a tiller.

4. I got a 72" rear discharge finish mower for cutting the lawn. It does a pretty good job and it's a good fit for the tractor. It excels in cutting the thousand or so feet of road frontage as it's a nice long straight shot. It's a little less handy near the buildings but not too awful. I think I should be able to use it in the ex-horsey area too.