OK, How About B7500 vs. B2410?

[GlueGuy]

Re: looking long and hard at a B7500

Campster,

Welcome to the TBN!

Based on your description of your lot, the B7500 sounds like a good fit. What's your driveway like, and how long is it? If it's rock or gravel, you might consider a large unit.

<font color=blue>Anybody got a 4-way bucket on these little guys?</font color=blue>

Not that I know of, but stick around here & somebody will chime in. Start a new thread to get the most exposure.

<font color=blue>Want to be able to put it in the pickup truck bed--am I dreaming?</font color=blue>

Not at all. That's one of the things that turned me on about the B7500. A friend has a B7100 (almost the same as the B7500) that he hauls around in the back of his pickemup. Pretty neat settup. The FEL lays down on the rack above the cab, and the backblade "just" hangs out the back. A couple of tie downs, and he's good to go!

This would be impossible with any of the bigger B series because of the length.




The GlueGuy

 

[campster]

Re: looking long and hard at a B7500

Seems there is almost universal acclaim in the contractor community here for the B20/B21. One rental house here in town has a B20 they let for $180/day with the hoe. Not bad considering the one near our place gets $190/day for a JD 30-horse with loader alone. Unfortunately, no implements at the place that has the B20 or I could try it out.

My ideal fantasy would be to buy the B21 with implements and then find somewhere I could rent the BT751 for the 5-10 days a year I need it. Even assuming I could find that arrangemment, the PTO HP is quite limited on the B20 (13.5) versus the 16-17 on the 7500. What will that impose on me in terms of limits?

 

[TresCrows]

Rich, I would get the 60 inch deck over the 54. You have power to spare with either but the 60 sticks out more and allows you to cut in close and around trees and stuff more easily--yes it does. It is also 9 guage steel and the 54 is 10 guage. Hey, this weekend I moved and spread 15 tons of limestone gravel for the drive, another 5 tons of larger rock for erosion control and 30 tons of dirt for me and my John Deere neighbor and my Craftsman neighbors. All that with a little BX. I also am planning to use the FEL to rock two 2000 lbs. boulders back so I can get a skid under them to move them to their new spot. I will pull them with the BX and if it cannot then my Toyota will easily in 4LOW. Oh, hey, I mow a trail with my BX in the woods for my Collies and wife and neighbors to walk on. It passes down the back and corner of our properties. It has small sapplings that try to stick up now and then and it is rough and even soft in places--BX does that too. A brushog would be better, I am looking at getting one soon. I made the trail twist and turn and double back on itself to fool the dogs into thinking it was longer than it really is. I have it so tight in places a larger tractor would not be able to manuver. They love it. The boxblade tilted full forward and used in reverse is a great mini-dozer for pushing and spreading the rock. J

 

[DaveNH]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

Trescrows writes
<font color=blue>I also am planning to use the FEL to rock two 2000 lbs. boulders back so I can get a skid under them to move them to their new spot. I will pull them with the BX ..... </font color=blue>

PICTURES!!!
I'm not going to say that it can't be done but be mindfull that you are definately exceeding the trailer loading weight.
Hate to see your little Bamm Bamm headed to the shop for repairs!

We're all in this together! (3)

 

[Roy]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

Dave; Was thinking along the same lines. If the object weighs 2,000 pounds, then that would require slightly over 2,000 lbs of force to get it moving, if the object was on a trailer, flat ground, with zero friction (perfect bearings). Not that I am saying it's impossible to move that (never say never, but I wouldn't want my BX to be the guinea pig), but dependent on skid, soil condition, and if there are any inclines during passage, the resistance should be significantly higher than 1 ton.

On other subjects, looked at your homepage yesterday. Nice pictures of the tractor, your 'helper' Frankie, and your wife.... But no pictures of Dave? You can't be that disgusting looking, can you?

Do you ship the honey, and of what nectars are they formed? Love fresh honey, and I am envious. I took an entomology course in college (1973 or '74), Beekeeping; fell in love with the idea. When I went home that summer, I told my parents that I wanted to rise a hive. They laughed. Problem was, we lived in Baltimore City.

Roy

 

[TresCrows]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

Roy, if I understood your logic it is flawed. It does not take 2000 lbs of force to move a 2000 lbs boulder. If it did then why is it I can put my 5000 lb Tundra in neutral and push it all by my lonesome! It is my intention to use the BX FEL under one corner to rock the boulders up so I can get another larger lever or timber under them and then each time I rock it using the FEL I will get a larger timber under until the boulder is high enough to skid them off the timbers on to a skid I will build. With the FEL bucket on the ground you would be surprised at the force it generates as a lever when it is commanded to bucket roll back. Since the weight of the boulder is 2000 lbs total but weight at the end lifted by the FEL will be much less, with 950 lbs breakout force appplied, it should rock the boulder back enough each time to get the larger and larger timbers under it---like a see-saw. As to towing it, tractors are for pulling and the tow weight limit has to do with many things other than transmission strength like controllability with a moving load, the worst that will happen would be all four wheels will loose traction and spin. In any case I will, if the BX cannot move it on the skid, use my little Toyota 4X4 truck, if it cannot and that is doubtfull it would not be able to, then I will bring in the Tundra, 4X4 and 5000 lbs of truck in 4low range with a 7000 lbs tow rating, should have no problem. Ah, give me a lever large enough and I can move the world and so can a BX. When brute force is not available think smart, the ancient Egyptions did the same method. J

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

Why are you wasting precious diesel fuel moving a small 2000 lb rock? I just watched a program on how they estimate the natives moved the 20-40 ton statues on Easter Island using levers and people power. Just get your neighbors together. Don't risk scratching any paint off that loader! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Have to get lots of small tree poles/limbs and each time you rock it have your partner slip another one under neath. They say that's probably how those big statues were moved. I figured they pushed them in to a hole and then excavated around them! They still haven't figured how they put the 5-10 ton hats on top of them! Aliens? Ancient Alien Visit Bring Cranes?

Actually I would think that big a chunk could do a BX in, transmission wise. No neighbors around with a something bigger around?

del

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

J,

Now you've got me confused! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

Did the Egyptians use the BX, the Toyota, or the Tundra??

/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Larry

 

[TresCrows]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

Del and Larry, my neighbors are good at getting me to help them but are scarce when I need them--lol. Sooo, my BX will be my partner and we will do it very much like you said to move the rocks. As to if the ancient Egyptions had a BX or a Tundra your guess is as good as mine, I suspect their alien buddys may have supplied both! Hey, ya gotta scratch the paint on the loader--good grief! J

 

[Wheeldog]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

Any good ancient Egyptian mechanical engineer will tell you that the force that is required to start that rock moving on a horizontal surface is equal to the normal force (or weight in this case) multiplied by the coefficient of static friction (who the heck knows what that is in this case) between the rock and the ground, or skids and the ground, etc. A typical value for the coefficient of friction in engineering cases is 0.1 to 0.25, but the number can be much greater than 1.

Trailer towing ratings are a little misleading since they're probably based on rolling resistance and other things like brake capacity - what's needed is a rated trailer weight for when the trailer brakes are locked up, the tires are flat, and you are on dirt/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif.

TresCrows - any concern with putting a ripple in the bucket of your BX? I've got some rocks I have my eye on too, but I wasn't sure how much prying the lip would take.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

TresCrows...

You sure are right about that leverage thing on bucket curl, the backhoe has the same thing, I've not exactly figured out where it has to be positioned but sometimes in digging stumps it will break a root or pull the front tires off the ground like the tractor weighs nothing.

And wasn't it Charles Atlas that said "Give me a place to stand and I'll move the Earth?"

Or was it Mighty Mouse that said, "Give me a long enough lever and I'll move the Earth?" /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

(We think of our BX as Mighty Mouse)

del

 

[campster]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

I think Archimedes was the guy with the fulcrum

 

[TresCrows]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

You would be correct in that the coefficient of friction should typically be much less than 1.0. Moving the 2000 lbs approx boulder will likely not require anywhere near 2000 lbs force on flat ground. The trailer limit capacity of the BX is 1765 lbs. This limit, for a tractor, is not the load rating of the frame or the transmission but of handling and safety qualities when that limit is exceeded especially given lawsuit happy Americans. Since the BX seems quite happy moving my 350 lbs box scraper with teeth down and a near full bucket it should be able to tug that boulder. I doubt the boulder will require as much effort. The tugging force limit is not trailer load capacity but is limited instead by traction available. As to bending the blade of the FEL when used as a lever, I doubt that also, it is pretty substantial but if that were your concern then use the blade near the corner. I am pretty certain the engineers accounted for the forces the FEL can generate when they sized the steel in the tractor and FEL and pretty certain that the transmission is able to absorb full engine power of 22 horses and 41 ft.lbs of torque without damage, it is far more likely traction will not allow maximum force limits to be reached before wheel spinning occurs thus relieving the loads. I have never dissassembled a hydrostat transmission but they are similar to the variable output hydr/turbine pump on jet engines and they have sheer shafts etc and I imagine there would be a load sensing valve or a sheer shaft in our tractors also or some other means of allowing engine forces to be partially disengaged or fully disengaged when force limits reach a damaging level. You can break anything, common sense should always rule the day. Obviuosly if I put the pedal to the metal and the transmission stalls then it is time for plan B. J

 

[Roy]

Re: BX Boulder Mover

TresCrows… You are correct about being less than 2000 lbs. I over simplified. To calculate the force required for rocking, one would have to know the exact pivot point, lift distance from the pivot point, and the mass. Difficult for an odd-shaped object. Now for moving, that calculation is real tricky for what you are attempting. As Wheeldog points out, who knows what that factor will be. Unlike your truck that offers wheels and balance designed for forward movement, you're dealing with a skid and a rock. Even if you place logs under the skids, there will be resistance, and soil conditions will play a big role.

Even if using the truck, the system can only be as successful as the weakest point. Have witnessed many failures (and successes) of neighbors and friends attempting to pull objects with 4x4's (sheds, stumps, rocks, etc.). The failures were the cases that their tires were nicely designed for pavement contact. Once they were on turf, the weakest point in the system was where the tires meet the grass, little resistance. So all the power translated to the path of least resistance, a stationary truck with wheels spinning.

Now, I personally hope that you do succeed; I have to root for Bamm-Bamm. But, I don't want to see you push it beyond the capabilities, and possibly damage the tractor or truck.
It's one of those jobs which you don't know if it's possible until you try it. If it works, pictures would be welcome. Good luck.

Wondered where my post went. I didn't realize that this thread had so much activity last night that it split into 2 sections, and I was reading half the new responses. I now see that you do have it pretty much figured out, and are going to back-off if it looks like the unit is being over stressed. Good luck with the project.

Wheeldog… I have been very aggressive with my FEL. When digging up small stumps, I have driven the FEL underneath the root system several times, and pulled up aggressively. Rather than bending, if it is too much resistance, the entire tractor will lift up (back wheels, or tip to the side). Have had two wheels off the ground at least a foot (just let the tractor slowly back down by reversing the FEL movement). Have also rammed stumps to see if they would push over using the edge; enough of a force that, if the stump didn't give, the unit would quite noticeable shake upon impact. I believe that the strength of the edge exceeds the capability of the tractor. No dents to date, no bends (just missing paint).


Roy