Off Grid Question

[63DH8]

I have a questions that's been begging me for an answer. Of those of you who live off grid, how is your frig, sterio, freezer, shop equipment, et al powered? Do you buy DC appliances or run everything through converters? How about larger load machines like air conditioning, furnances, compressors, lathes, welders, et al?

 

[scesnick]

While I am not off grid , I have looked really closely at wind turbines and micro hydro. I think I am going to go with micro hydro next spring.
You would almost have to have a battery bank if you have no grid power at all. The solar, wind turbines or micro hydro would charge your batteries and a inverter converts that DC power to AC power to run just the normal lights t.v. etc.. Fridge and freezer would be alot easier if they were propane which is what most off gridders use.
If you do have grid power and still want to use alternative energy you have alot more options. You can "Net Meter" and not have to buy expensive batteries.
You have to carefully size your batteery bank according to your power need.
I a however no expert in this field so if I am wrond about any of this please correct me.

 

[monkeymonk]

yup off grid living ahhhh. Gots me a sunfrost fridge runs off a 125 watt panel and 2 batteres 12v that is. summer requires a propane stove top. Great stereo trick.. connect pos/neg wires on the batt to the pos neg on the stereo where you would put the batteries make sure to put a fuse in between or plug into the inverter on larger systems.

sunfrost also makes freezers.

Off gridders use an Inverter. Trailers have Converters.

Shop tools i fire up the genny.........STILL..

WE are currently installing 8 125watt panels an OutBack mx60 charge controler, 2-2000 watt inverters, a 220 relay for the well, switches,fuses,............. its going to be 48 volts at the panel pole then at the power shed its converted to 24volt through the charge controler, to the inverters-batteries and so on...48 volt is more efficent for longer distances and doesn't require a big expensive wire. In this system everything will be AC run through the inverters. The 12v fridge gets a converter relay/switchie. When all is said and done we should be able to run the house and shop/tools. Oh yea the 3000 watt honda super quiet es? eu? ie? (I have both) the electric start one will be tied in for those low low not so sunny days. Not to many as i used a solar pathfinder to chart the sun.

Washing machine as well Whirlpool front loader up grade here we come very energy friendly.

Hydro upgrade this winter!! Tied together we will have to much power

I haven't seen TV in over 2 months and have dial up so i can't watch feeds and such.

The less you run the less power you need besides TV/SAT is killing communities... But thats another story.. don't get me wrong i enjoy watching when i have the chance.

SCESNICK
My neighbor (a few actually)runs a 3600 watt Canyon mountain hydro plant that doesn't require batteries you can but it doesn't. They also run several TV's computers and a music studio. and 2 houses

Lots of folks use propane but many are switching or have switched to much $. using it only for oven/stove and on demand water heaters makes more economical sen$e.

you can have as many batteries you want you just need a way to charge them

Check out WWW.Homepower.com

 

[scesnick]

Monkeymonk,
I called canyon hydro but thier turbines are mostly AC turbines. I wish I could get 3.6KW outof my stream but I am looking more like 1 KW. What kind of hydro turbine are you gonna run? I am probably going to go with the Stream Engine. They seem very top notch. www.microhydropower.com

If your neighbors areproducing 3.6 KW why are you wasting your time and especially your money on PV? It sounds like you have the ultimate MH site to take advantage of.
My measurements are 51 ft of head and a seasonal flow of 400gpm to 100 gpm. Dare I ask what your estimates are? If your neighbors are running a Canyon Turbine I'm sure your volume is measured more in Cubic Feet then GPM.

( I'm jealous !!!!!)

 

[scott_vt]

Lots of folks use propane but many are switching or have switched to much $. using it only for oven/stove and on demand water heaters makes more economical sen$e.

Hydro is great if you have that capability !!! Many neighbors up the line from me use a combination of propane and generators or anything solar. Living off grid is an excersize in an economical way of life and conservation is certainly the name of the game ! And smiling at the end of the month when you would normally get your electrical bill

 

[woodlot]

Ah, yes, power companies. I use 70-80 dollars of electricity per month. My bill is 110-120 per month. Thats $40 a month in misc. fees and taxes. Last month I had one service call from the POCO for a scheduled power outage, they where at the house less than 10 minutes, BAM!.....another $150 fee. Outragous.

If I didn't run a 200amp service at the house and 150amp to the barn, with all the goodies, AC, freezers, fans, tools, etc, etc. I'd opt for off-grid too!

 

[OKnewguy]

My parents neighbors have been off grid for 25 to 30 years. This guy is deep into it. I would go over there as a kid and help him with stuff, and I got to learn about electricty and such. His whole setup is dc based. At the time he put it all together, the converters did not provide good sine waves, so he went all dc. He has cable the size of your arm to go from his banks of batteries, and connect the wind generator, solar cells etc. His whole house is dc and has every appliance converted to run on dc. When he got married about 10 years ago he did need to get a small converter to power his wifes computer and a tv. His shop has planners, saws, drillpress, all converted. He actually has an old gravely that he mowes with a sickle type blade that is run with batteries. He has a dc fridge that has walls about 10" thick (super efficient).
I saw him a few month ago and was asking him about things, and he comented that if had to build it all now, he would definetly go with converters and run a more normal house. The savings in wire would pay for lose in efficiency.
BTW he heats with solar and wood, has no airconditioner.
Sorry to ramble, I did not even tell you about his composting toilet!

Dave

 

[Phils]

I've been 'off-grid' since buying our place in the late seventies. I didn't originally intend to live off grid, it more just evolved that way (like, for instance, when I inquired as to "how much?" with the power company).

Initially we used little generators. Later we put in a battery bank, charged by the generator which was used for the washer/dryer. Also got the first inverter installed at that time. It's been an ongoing project. Two months ago I installed 6 new 170Watt panels and the MX60 charge controller. That controller works so well I bought another to replace the Xantrex controller I'd been using for many years (on our original 1200 watt solar array). I won't continue further about the different configurations or systems I've used over the years, but just answer your questions with the situation I'm in at present.

Refrigeration is the hardest part. I have two RV friges installed side-by-side in our kitchen. They use propane. If I have a surplus of electricity, I can switch one over automatically to be a "load" for the excess juice which saves a little propane. That is only an option during the summer and only if we are gone all day (to work) and not using electricity.

I have three inverters powered from my battery bank. One (2000w) runs a jet pump from our 1000 gal cistern tank so that we have water pressure on demand (there's a couple of bladder tanks that the jet pump feeds).

One inverter (2500w) powers washer, dryer, microwave, 1/2 of our lights, swamp coolers, and the other large house loads (like the furnace blower if I'm too lazy to carry firewood, which isn't often).

The third inverter (1000w) powers entertainment and the rest of the lighting. Without being on a separate inverter, when the washer would spin or when the water pump would cycle on, or when the dryer igniter would start it would be a momentary 'brown-out' and our big-screen TV would click off, then back on. This way has proved to be excellent with no problems.

We have a 10KW generator (propane) that I run for an hour or so a couple of times each week to refill the cistern from our deep well. That also keeps the generator exercised. If we have extended periods of no sun, it is our backup power source too. It is the source for my welder, but most power tools operate off of the 2500w inverter just fine.

We had a record wet/cloudy spring and after getting a huge propane bill I began increasing our solar array size. I'm set to add another MX60 and six more of the 170w panels if we still can't make sufficient electricity on cloudy days, but 1) I won't know that until winter and 2) I can't get any more federal tax credits until next year as I am already getting the max $2000 for this year.

Phil

 

[3RRL]

63DH8,
I'm in the process of building a complete "off grid" solar powered system. I plan to run the house and shop from it. Everything in the house and shop will run off 110v and 220v AC like normal. It has an option to produce 3Ø 220v to the shop but I will most likely just run my 3Ø converter. It will be pretty elaborate amd costly, but I am miles ahead of having the power company hook me up. There is a post I made here SOLAR POWER that explains how to prepare for an off grid system. I will continue to post to it as progress is made. It might answer some of your questions?

 

[scott_vt]

63DH8,
I'm in the process of building a complete "off grid" solar powered system. I plan to run the house and shop from it. Everything in the house and shop will run off 110v and 220v AC like normal. It has an option to produce 3Ø 220v to the shop but I will most likely just run my 3Ø converter. It will be pretty elaborate amd costly, but I am miles ahead of having the power company hook me up. There is a post I made here SOLAR POWER that explains how to prepare for an off grid system. I will continue to post to it as progress is made. It might answer some of your questions?

Mornin Rob,
Wow, that was an excellent read !!! But you made me read all the way to the end to find out what the electric company would have charged you, had you gone that route I will be following that thread for future updates

When we bought our little place up in Vt, I remember the previous owner telling me how expensive it was to run power to the house ! That was only 800 ft From the road to the first and only pole is about 300 ft and then it goes underground another 500 ft or so.

Anyway thanks for sharing!

 

[Haoleguy]

Very nice read. I'm not thinking of going off grid but building a new house with geothermal heating/cooling and photovoltaic cells. The latter I have been thinking of using to add back to the grid with an energy credit. I'm just forming ideas at the moment but a question I have is am I naive with the photovoltaics and how does it typically work to return energy to the power company?

 

[stumpfield]

Very nice read. I'm not thinking of going off grid but building a new house with geothermal heating/cooling and photovoltaic cells. The latter I have been thinking of using to add back to the grid with an energy credit. I'm just forming ideas at the moment but a question I have is am I naive with the photovoltaics and how does it typically work to return energy to the power company?

Your are not going to get rich from selling electricity to the power company.. In your case, you would need a grid-tie system and make arrangement with your power company to spin the meter backward when you produce excess power. But you usually don't get pay if you produce more than you use. A grid-tie system is most cost effective when power company in your area charge tier-pricing like in California. Where you got charge a much higher rate for over usage. You want to produce enough power to get you just below the higher pricing tier. With all state & federal incentives, it's a very attractive investment.

 

[Haoleguy]

Stumpfield - Thank you for the reply. I will check with Conn Light & Power to see how they handle excess power. I don't have a sense that CLP has a tier system but it could be because of the low power consumption we have with our current house and never see a change to our bill. Thanks again.

 

[Youare]

The company I work for in southern Vermont decided to build a co-gen system for electrical and heating/cooling of the complete facility which is 30,000 sq. ft. They also wanted to use bio-diesel to fuel the engines for the generators.

The system works but the cost of operation is well over 2 times what it would cost to buy power from the grid. That is just figuring the fuel cost. When you figure the added expense of engine maintenance and rebuild cost of the generators it is much more expensive than purchasing electricity for the power company.

We are now running two diesel engines to make power which produce emissions and use fuel that is increasing our dependance on oil. I can't see how this is better for the environment. Solar panels would make more sense but the cost to produce enough electricity from solar would be even more expensive, I think.

I still think technology still has a long way to go before it will become a good economic decision to live off the grid.

Randy

 

[midlf]

The big problem of off grid vs on grid economics is economies of scale and fuel cost (if it is a fuel derived system). The bigger you make power plants the lower their cost per KWHr. Also they have very large and thus similarly economic fuel delivery systems and arrange for lower rate long term contracts.

If you have access to grid power at a reasonable connection fee it is very difficult to be more economic than the grid unless you have very favorable arrangements for equipment prices.

For example ask those who have had to use backup generation for some time what was their cost per KWHr for that power.

The best bet for the future is economic solar cell production, say as photo voltaic shingles. However the most economic use of these would still be on grid as a daytime load reduction system with the grid to provide dark time power.

 

[Highbeam]

Randy, I agree, BUT the cost to hook on to the grid must be considered. If you have a powerline at your house then you are much better of buying power and paying the 7 cents per KWhour and having a backup generator should the grid fail. That is my plan. If you live somewhere so remote that it would cost 200,000$ to run power to your home then nearly the only choice is off-grid. There will come a time when electricity fuels everything and I believe the nuclear power plants will come back to do it.

I can't make power for 7 cents per KWH. Power is quite cheap here in the NW. I read that there is a law, federal?, that requires power companies to buy back power you produce for the same price they charge you for it in the form of a credit to your power bill. The power company will not be forced to send you a check but can zero the bill. Just having the right meter to allow for this seems wise. You can run a diesel generator on lots of fuels including waste oil and biodiesel so there may be a point where these waste fuels can be used to spin your meter back to zero and do you the service of burning your waste oil. There is a web group that restores these lister generators which are mammoth single cylinder slow diesel engines that can be hooked to efficient generator heads to make power efficiently, one guy measured 1/8 gallon of diesel per delivered KWH and that was good.

 

[Youare]

Highbeam, a friend who was off grid for 8 years was because it would have cost him thousands of $$ to get power to his location. I think it was over 4 miles of power lines and poles that would have to be installed. As time went by and more people built in that area the power company extended the lines and he was able to connect for a small fee.

My wife and I considered 15 years ago building on a lot that we own but is without power. The cost of appliances that do not need electricity, low voltage ligthing, generators, and such put the price of the project out of our reach then.

Living off the grid brings a certian satisfaction of self sufficientcy but unless you have a hydro-electric operation where you can sell back power to the grid it is more costly than buying power. There was a doctor in this area who had a nice little hydro-electric plant and the power company had to buy his power, at a reduced rate however.

The company I work for uses about 7,000 gallons of bio-diesel every 35 days to generate power. The estimated cost a month to purchase the same amount of power from the grid is $7,000. We are connected to the grid in case of emergency but will not use it. So, in order to tell everyone we make our own power that comes at a pretty high cost.

Randy

 

[stumpfield]

Well, when you live off-grid, you need to learn and adapt to really living off-the-grid. If you just simply build the same on-the-grid house with all the amenities, then you have to build a mini utility company 1st and deal with all the associated startup capital and maintenance costs. It's like starting a business to serve just one customer....It takes knowledge and a lot of hard work to run a utiltiy company no matter how small it is. There's no way you can do it cost effectively and be competitive.
Today's typical homes are built with the intention to be on "life-support" at the very start. As soon as you pull the plug, it will not support itself. Not to mention living in it. It's no different than a dying person on life support in a hospital. So, living off-the-grid requires a lot planning and some life style changes. At the least, start with building a house that can support itself and require little or no energy at all. It's like we need to go to the doctor every once a while, but don't have a tube attach to our body to survive.
The most reliable form of enery that we know of today is the sun. So, solar energy is our best bet for most of us who wants to live off-the-grid. The only problem is the high cost. Perhaps this article offer some hope if price of solar panel will really drop to $1 per watt in the near future.

http://www.photon-magazine.com/news/news_2006-04_eu_aleo.htm