NH Mastergold engine oil

   / NH Mastergold engine oil #1  

jimg

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Got a pre-season sales blurb from NH in the mail which contained an interesting writeup about their Mastergold engine oil. Their claim is its better than some unnamed competitors product b/c: 1) it has a higher % of zinc for better wear resistance, 2) gives easier cold starts and 3) has a higher TBN for better suspension of contaminants and resistance to the corrosive effects of acid build up. The figures most interesting to me were zinc and TBN...%age of zinc is somewhere between .170 and .180 (very close to .180) and TBN is 12.0. I did some poking around for TBN and zinc in other oils but didn't find much. Anyone know how the above numbers compare to other 15w-40 oils for diesel engines?
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #2  
That's a good TBN rating at 12. I would be interested to see what it's retention rate is over time. There are diesel engine oils on the market that have a TBN of 15+ that have excellent retention levels.

The ZDP actually seems a little high, preferably the ideal max limit should be around .14% by volume. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability. ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942. In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range. In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called Sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests. A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range. However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

The zinc/phosphorus (ZDP,ZDDP,ZnDTP) level is a slipery slope, more is not alway's better in extended use applications.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Hi DP

Interesting!!

So its not enough to know TBN then...you'd want to see a graph of TBN to engine run time, wall clock time or both? For instance one engine may run 16hrs every day and another may run only 10hrs/wk. It seems both cases would be interesting since in the first case it would be pushed to suspend particulates. In the later case its more about buffering acid build up. Am I understanding this correctly?

I wonder if CNH engines are designed to require a higher % of zinc? I'm sure the NH engineers worked w/ the petro engineers to come up w/ the formulation. At least it makes sense to me and is very similar to how JD does it.

Also what other oil parameters would be interesting to know? I'm sure there must be more than TBN & zinc. I also suspect NH only touched on those additives which would help sell their product.

Again, I'd really like to know how the MG specs compare to other 15w-40 diesel oils. Is there any place to get that info?
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #4  
Is there any place to get that info?
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf lists some numbers on pages 3 & 4, although many of those oils have been superseded by the CJ-4 formulation. You could also dig around in the
VOA section over at BITOG. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=11&page=1
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #5  
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf lists some numbers on pages 3 & 4, although many of those oils have been superseded by the CJ-4 formulation. You could also dig around in the VOA section over at BITOG. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=11&page=1

New Holland does not market a CJ-4 oil. That spec is not required in off-road diesels (yet), at least not CNH engines.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #6  
Hi DP

Interesting!!

So its not enough to know TBN then...you'd want to see a graph of TBN to engine run time, wall clock time or both? For instance one engine may run 16hrs every day and another may run only 10hrs/wk. It seems both cases would be interesting since in the first case it would be pushed to suspend particulates. In the later case its more about buffering acid build up. Am I understanding this correctly?

I wonder if CNH engines are designed to require a higher % of zinc? I'm sure the NH engineers worked w/ the petro engineers to come up w/ the formulation. At least it makes sense to me and is very similar to how JD does it.

Also what other oil parameters would be interesting to know? I'm sure there must be more than TBN & zinc. I also suspect NH only touched on those additives which would help sell their product.

Again, I'd really like to know how the MG specs compare to other 15w-40 diesel oils. Is there any place to get that info?

Some diesel engine oils start out with a high TBN which drops off quickly and then stabilizes while others maintain a high TBN with a gradual drop while in service. It really depends on the type of additive package as to how effective it is in maintaining a good TBN throughout the oils life. Two things that can drastically effect the TBN are the engines condition, specifically how efficient it burns and how much combustion byproducts it dumps into the oil and the type of fuel you are using. ULSD will have less effect on TBN than say LSD and regular high sulfur diesel being the worst. The sulfur content of the fuel plays a large role since sulfur and sulfur byproducts combine with moisture and oxygen in the oil to produce sulfuric acid compounds. The alkalinity of the oil (the TBN) is a measure of how much reserve alkalinity is left to neutralize acids.

The best way to judge a engine oils TBN retention is on a piece of stationary equipment. It's a ideal application for testing additive package performance like this. Stationary equipment operates pretty much at one constant speed, 24 hours a day at a constant load so it contaminates the oil at a fairly steady rate. When TBN of different oils is tested at regular intervals over the oils service life there can be a rather drastic difference in one oils ability to maintain a good TBN while the other quickly falls off below safe levels.

In all honesty the best way to judge any oil (engine, gear, hydraulic, etc...) is to ask the manufacturer to provide you with some UOA's from real customers using their product in real life applications.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil
  • Thread Starter
#7  
This is really interesting. If I were to test my engine oil would TBN be part of the analysis? That way I could get some idea of how it was behaving in my application. BTW is TBN aka pH or related to pH in some way?
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #8  
Some years ago, Caterpillar introduced their own engine oil formulations. Mobile was the refiner/blender. The most potent version of that oil had a TBN around 14. Caterpillar learned rather quickly that high TBN while it is good for offsetting the acid formation that came from high sulfur content diesel fuel that it came at cost somewhere else. That "cost" was the high ash content of the oil causing piston ring sticking and subsequent oil consumption issues. This was especially a problem for the Cat 3208 used in some White tractors and on highway trucks of the time.

The ash content of the oil is still an issue. Higher levels of ZDDP ( zinc dialkyldithiophophate) has the same problem, ash content. With most fuel available now in North America being only ULSD, the need for high TBN is reduced. Fortunately your those who do not have to use exhaust aftertreatment on their engines, you can still use CI-4 engine oil, if it is still available from your lubricant distributor. Many major oil brands still offer CI-4 oil. If you are using CJ-4 engine oil, it actually is not as good as the former rating. CJ-4 was introduced for use in 2007 emissions compliant on-highway and some off highway engines. CJ-4 has a lower TBN value as the zinc in it can foul the catalyst muffler and diesel particulate trap. Fouling of those aftertreatment devices can be overcome by removing them and having them cleaned. If you do not have those concerns, stay with CI-4 for as long as you can. I work with some very large on-highway fleet customers who strive to achieve long interval oil and filter change life. Several have found that they have had to revert back to CI-4 oil even though they are operating engines that the recommended oil is CJ-4 to achieve longer service intervals. What is your goal in a lubricant? If you are concerned about achieving standard CNH recommended service intervals, CJ-4 lubricants will suffice. If you are thinking that you want to extend oil life, higher TBN is needed. As you burn more fuel producing combustion by-product acids, you need more TBN additive to offset the effects of these acids. While fuel is now ULSD in North America, sulfurous and sulfuric acids are minimal. However, 78% of the air your engine breathes is nitrogen. Nitric and nitrous acids are the results of combustion, so you still very much need adequate TBN. Also, some lubricants may have increased TBN but may not have sufficient other additives to compliment the TBN when it comes to extending service life of the oil and filters. There is at least one filter company that offers a lube filter with TBN additive. While it may extend the life of the oil TBN value, the other additives such as dispersant and detergents are at or near the end of their life span. TBN alone is not a good judge of oil capability but it is important.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #9  
Well said Gary. As far as ash content goes there are low ash engine oils that still have high TBN numbers. Additive chemistery has come a long way in the past few years. Triboligist have quite a arsenal to chose from in their additive toolbox these day's, some additives costing quite a bit more than others.

jimg - Check with the analysis lab to be sure. Some labs include the TBN test as a regular test in engine oils while other labs have a additional fee for it. If your getting the UOA's done for free by your lubricants supplier they usually include a TBN test for engine oils or a TAN test for other oils.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil
  • Thread Starter
#10  
LOL...when I started this thread I thought I might have a hope of understanding enough about oils to make a good informed decision. I see I was terribly wrong. Thanx for all the very informative infos guys. It did help but right now I'm in info overload. :) I just need to think about what was said and try to understand it. It seems a rather broad topic that's too much to grasp in a short time.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #11  
LOL...when I started this thread I thought I might have a hope of understanding enough about oils to make a good informed decision. I see I was terribly wrong. Thanx for all the very informative infos guys. It did help but right now I'm in info overload. :) I just need to think about what was said and try to understand it. It seems a rather broad topic that's too much to grasp in a short time.

It seems that the method of business these days is to drive all improvements and products strictly from a cost basis, not what is the best technology. That being said, private branded oil from ag companies or cooperatives likely are chosen based on contract bid and minimum specifications. To keep it simple, stay with the name brand oils you have known for years if you are not able to reduce the info down to smaller bites :)

For Cummins engines in CNH equipment, there is Cummins Premium Blue 2000 by Valvoline. There are many more very good lubricants from Shell, Chevron, Conoco as well as from smaller but still notable companies like DA. When it comes to lubricating oil, I am out of my league compared to engine coolant. :D
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil
  • Thread Starter
#12  
"It seems that the method of business these days is to drive all improvements and products strictly from a cost basis, not what is the best technology."

Agreed...but I think its mostly always been this way. The best ideas seem not to be the most popular. As an engineer its frustrating to be overruled by bean counters and marketeers. Oh well...

"That being said, private branded oil from ag companies or cooperatives likely are chosen based on contract bid and minimum specifications. To keep it simple, stay with the name brand oils you have known for years if you are not able to reduce the info down to smaller bites"

This sounds to me like you're not buying the CNH Mastergold engine oil marketing hype. Am I understanding that correctly?

"For Cummins engines in CNH equipment, there is Cummins Premium Blue 2000 by Valvoline."

I think my tractor has an Iveco motor but I'm not completely sure about that.

"There are many more very good lubricants from Shell, Chevron, Conoco as well as from smaller but still notable companies like DA. When it comes to lubricating oil, I am out of my league compared to engine coolant. "

Last oil change I used Mobil Delvac. Not sure how well/poorly that rates but it gets changed every year. Would like to find an oil which I knew would last for multiple years. Cutting costs and maint time would be nice. Guess I could do that via an oil analysis but I'm not sure I would understand the report.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #13  
Last oil change I used Mobil Delvac. Not sure how well/poorly that rates but it gets changed every year.

Is that the CJ4 blend? I have plenty of it but have yet to use it in my NH
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #15  
"This sounds to me like you're not buying the CNH Mastergold engine oil marketing hype. Am I understanding that correctly?

Last oil change I used Mobil Delvac. Not sure how well/poorly that rates but it gets changed every year. Would like to find an oil which I knew would last for multiple years. Cutting costs and maint time would be nice. Guess I could do that via an oil analysis but I'm not sure I would understand the report.


Mobil Delvac is good oil. You mentioned that you want an oil that lasts for multiple years. Considering the investiment in your equipment, pushing the oil change interval is not in your best interest. Yes, in the short term your operating costs are reduced. In the long term where you plan on keeping the tractor for years, the payback is that extending change intervals at the cost of component rebuild life. Of course, if you do not keep a tractor long then changing oil less often is not such a problem. This is the approach of many large on-highway truck fleets. When they trade road tractors off, you do not want them....they get sent to Central and South America. I even saw some old fleet tractors from the US when I was in South Africa in 2007. Whoever buys it can count on some rebuild costs because they were "rode hard and put away wet". :)

Some oil analysis companies do a good job of providing information on your results report so you can understand when they flag a result as being a problem. You can learn about analysis from this company: POLARIS Laboratories, LLC: Oil Analysis, Coolant Analysis, Fuel Analysis, Condition Monitoring, Preventive Maintenance Service Company

I would take a pass on their free on-line coolant training. The author of that does not know engine coolant and especially engines well enough to have information that is believable.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil
  • Thread Starter
#16  
My plan wasn't to push the limits just not spend money and time for no reason. The goal is to lengthen the change period w/o causing engine problems...I'm planning to have my tractor for many years. I'd use an oil analysis to determine when a change was necessary. That, of course, means using an oil up to the job. Thanx for the lab pointer.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #17  
I would have to disagree on the use of UOA's and extending oil drain intervals. I have more customers than I can count that use a UOA program and use it as a guideline to extend their drain intervals safely. Don't get me wrong, you don't want to use a oil until it has no additive reserve but draining oil that has nothing wrong with it is simply wasting money. A properly implemented UOA program can actually help to greatly extend equipment life. By monitoring contamination, additive levels and most importantly contamination levels over a long period of time you can implement a extended drain program by trend analysis. After a couple of oil samples you will start to find where your engine, trans, rear end, etc... normal operating levels are (trend analysis). If you see a particular wear metal going above the normal level but long before it reaches a level where the lab would flag it you already have a heads up that something might be happening. The whole key to successfully implementing a UOA program is reliable repeatability. If you only sample every once in a while the UOA isn't going to tell you much. Tested on a regular basis a good UOA program can be the key to greatly increasing equipment life.
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil
  • Thread Starter
#18  
What are the guidelines of a properly designed program? Does the lab help w/ that or is there some std to follow?
 
   / NH Mastergold engine oil #19  
The first key element to a good UOA program is how you draw your sample. The analysis is only as good as the sample and a externally contaminated sample will show erroneous results. The best way is to either use a oil sampling pump or a oil sampling port mounted in the system being tested. If you use a sampling pump make sure you use a new piece of nylon tubing each time. You can draw a sample while you are draining but you stand the chance of getting contaminates in the oil.

Next you need to set up a sampling schedule. If you don't plan on extending your drain intervals this is rather simple, draw the sample at the time of service. If you plan on extending drain intervals you need to do a little more planning. Draw your first sample at what would be your normally scheduled service (I'll get to filter's later). Now let's say your are sampling a OTR truck engine oil who's regular service intervals are 10,000 miles. Take your second analysis at 15,000 miles, then 20,000 miles adding half of the regular service interval to each additional analysis. At some point no matter how high of a quality lubricant you are using it is going to need changing. Fuel dilution, soot loading, moisture, contamination, additive package depletion, etc... At some point the analysis lab is going to flag one of the samples marginal in some category, probably contamination or additive depletion. When you get this result change the oil. Let's say you got all the way out to 80,000 miles. At this point the oil has reached it's usable life but we want a safety margin. Now that you have your initial analysis cycle done you know at about 80,000 miles the oil will be at the limit. On the second oil change take your first sample at around 20,000 miles, next one at 40,000 and then at 60,000 miles draw a sample and change the oil. This gives you a safety margin so you are not always running the oil to it's limit. You now have your extended drain interval schedule.

As time goes on you will get a base line of what the normal wear metal readings are. Let's say that the lab would normally flag a analysis at 200 ppm (parts per million) but your equipment usually runs at about 20 to 30 ppm per 20,000 mile sampling interval. If you were to get a analysis back that showed 180 ppm in this metal the lab wouldn't flag it because it has not reached it's acceptable limit yet but you know it would regularly be at only 20 or 40 ppm. Draw your next sample early to monitor and see if it is increasing at a increased rate. This is a indication of something abnormal going on and it's time for some diagnosis to track down the culprit. It will stick out like a sore thumb on the analysis results in the graph section as there will be a spike in the what would normally be a gradual sloped line. This is known as trend analysis since a piece of equipment has a "trend" of how quickly it wears out the lubricant and contaminates it. If your analysis is provided by your lubricants supplier they will probably also get a copy of all your results. In my case all of the customers I service, I get a copy of their results. If I notice something that seems out of place on the analysis I contact the customer and inform them. Not all lube reps do this and I'm probably a rare bird but I think that my customers deserve the extra attention. I work with the customer to try to track down the problem weather it's external contamination, a mechanical problem or just particle scarring.

Filter maintenance is probably the most difficult to establish a change schedule for since there is a wide degree of filter quality. If in doubt just change the filter at the regular service interval. Check to see if your filter supplier offers a extended drain interval filter, many do. Extended drain filters usually have a lot more filter media in them and of much higher quality. Many have built in bypass filtration units. Some even offer extended drain filters that contain a additive booster's. I'm not a big fan of the additive booster filters since every oil has a different additive package and different levels. The filter has no way of knowing how much of what is needed.

If in doubt about anything on a analysis or how to implement one contact the analysis lab or your lube rep if you have one. It's better to play it safe than sorry.
 

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