New vs. Old Dilemma

[LP Farmer]

As a posting newcomer to this site I'd first like to thank all of you who take the time to respond to many of the simple (and often redundant) questions from us newcomers.

My wife and I recently made the decision to move into farming. We are both teachers. We have a long-range plan to rehabilitate an old homesteader farm and turn it into an organic vegetable and fruit farm. We've already sold one season's harvest at a local farmers market and are starting into our second season. Last year we had our neighbor bush hog about 6 acres of our land. It was prime grazing land that has returned to brush, pines and maple saplings after over 40 years of neglect. While he managed to open up a great deal of the brush he was hampered by wetter soil and many saplings (Iv'e begun to clear these).

We began to think that we needed to have a tractor which would allow us to do more of this clean up and begin working the land. Initially we set a price of $4,000 - $5,000 for a used machine. We were interested in getting a 23 -30hp, with a FEL, and a brush hog. Clearly, I learned real fast that my price range was not going to purchase a tractor of that kind. I've attended several auctions, responded to several ads, and always the price moves out of my range. So I've had to adjust the range higher.

So here is my question/dilemma and I am interested to hear other opinions on the matter since my wife and I are thoroughly confused. Should I purchase a used tractor a bit out of my price range. For example there is a Ford 1700, 23 hp?, 4x4, FEL, brush hog for $7,000. It does not appear to have been loved, nor has it been beat on by the one owner (did not like the fact that the oil was black and dirty). I am worried about replacement parts. But after quite a bit of reading and research I began to think that it might be better to push to a higher level ($10k 12k) and buy a new tractor which might include a warranty. I should also add that there are plenty of dealers near here, including MF, NH, JD, Kubota, Mahindra, and TYM so I have options (I'm less intereseted in particular brands and more intrerested in new vs. old).
Clearly there are considerable advantages in buying a new tractor, but the downside is a higher price at a time where we are scrimping to get this farm running. (We are planning to break ground on a straw bale house next summer.) We are in this for the long haul so we致e started to lean towards a new tractor, but I hope to make one purchase that will last me the next 20+ years but not hurt me too much financially in the short run.

Has anyone else struggled with this dilemma? What insight can you offer that might help push us in a particular direction?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Mark

 

[ChuckinNH]

First of all, I applaud what you, and your wife have commited to doing. Tractors last a long time, and many hours so you should be able to find a used tractor that suits your needs, and won't stretch the budget too badly. You may have to go a bit smaller than you would like, and maybe not as shiny as you would like for that to happen. There are a couple of good things about buying used in your case. It will give you the experience you need to know just what can, and can't be done with the kind of tractor you choose, and it will still be worth pretty much what you paid for it if your fortunes change, or you find you really need something different. Black oil in a diesel tractor is normal by the way. For many of us, the dream is to have tractor to do "stuff" with, your dream is bigger, and better, so make sure the tools you choose don't take too much money from the dream.

 

[meadowlarkponds]

Good advice above. Used is the way to go, used diesel tractors, that is. Stay away from gas.

Also, try to get as much tractor as you can reasonably afford. From what you've described, 30 hp would be the best bet, IMO. I wouldn't go for the 23hp, myself.

A FEL is really a great item to have....but it usually adds a good bit to the cost of the used tractor. You might consider a tractor of the hp you need without the FEL for now. You can always add the FEL later...at more cost possibly, but at a time when it may be more affordable.

I went many years without a FEL and I am very thankful to have one now, but an adequately sized tractor is more important than the FEL starting out. You can find ways to compensate.

I wish you the best in your adventure...enjoy the journey, every day.

 

[MossRoad]

Welcome to TBN!

You may want to look into sticking with your mid price of 7K for a used utility tractor with loader and brush hog and hire out 3-4K of stump and tree removal by someone with a tracked excavator. The excavator will do it all in a few days and it will be over, getting you a head start and saving you perhaps months worth of time, labor, fuel and wear on your machine. Just my two cents.

When we bought 20 acres I purchased a used tractor loader. It was 50 PTO HP with an integrated FEL and cab for $5000. It weighed about 8000 pounds. A brush hog and box scraper were purchased for $1000. I used it to cut in our road, remove the largest trees and stumps that I needed removed, and mowed rows of trees for about 10 years. I put hundreds of hours on it over those years. I then downsized to a new smaller tractor for the maintenance chores and eventually recouped some money by selling the large machine after it was no longer needed.

Good luck in your search.

 

[hazmat]

Tough decision - used can offer value, but has some risk. Are you mechanically inclined? Is there a local independent tractor mechanic available? A moderate/major repair can easily get into the thousands of dollars.

New offers warranty piece of mind and attractive financing - often 0% for 3 - 3.5 years and low rates for longer terms. Most manufacturers offer "value" tractors with less bells & whistles (and lower prices). Examples would be Kubota B7800, New Holland TC30 and Deere 790 / 990.

 

[BarryinMN]

Look at 4 seasons tasks, especially if reliability is critical, ie need to get plowed out & to town on time, etc. Also account for implements that you might add.

My case, an old tractor TLB worked for 2 Winters. Broken starter, cold, 2wd made for 4 hr snow clearing. Summertime tractor was a old gas JD. No 3pt but simple to fix until the gas tank started leaking gas directly on the hot exhaust manifold!

I made the decision for a new MFWD cabbed tractor with used attachments. The new machine has the safety equipment, QT loader, and high pressure hydraulics.

Makes for higher productivity.

Example: old JD has 1000PSI hydraulics the dump trailer must be lightly loaded in order for it to dump. New tractor has 2900PSI, the dump trailer can be heaped high and dumps effortlessly.

Another: switch a dirt bucket for grapple & grab downed trees, old method is climb off, chainsaw, & chain then drag.

I still have the old machines, I let friends & relatives run them when they come up to help. Otherwise they stay in the barn as a second choice.

 

[flusher]

My advice: since this is your first tractor, get a new 20-25 hp diesel tractor with hydrostatic transmission and FEL.

There are many possibilities for this type of tractor. I used a 21 hp (engine) Kubota B7510HST with LA302 FEL (4-ft bucket) that I bought in May05 for the first 2.5 years after I bought my new place (10 acres flat pasture). Paid $12,600 plus tax (0% for 36 month, $338/month payments). Spent another $1.5 K for implements (4-ft KK brush hog rotary mower, $650), 4-ft KK box blade ($350), KK middle buster plow/subsoiler ($140), used Yanmar RS-1200 rototiller ($300). The 7510 handled the field mowing, landscape installation, vegetable garden and general material toting chores. The FEL and box blade came in handy for excavating work when I installed paver block walkways and a patio.

Botas are rock solid machines.

 

[case685]

Hi Mark Just want to add my vote in favour of a good used tractor. If you stick to the major brands ie: Kubota, John Deere, Case-IH etc and stick to whats referred to as a utility tractor ie: basic gear drive transmission, usually 2wd you should not have any trouble finding a machine that will give many years of service.
Unlike cars with tractors generally what you see is what you get.
If it starts good ( black/grey smoke is normal at startup but it should run clean when it warms up ) shifts smoothly and the hydraulics/3pt work good its likely a good machine. As far as replacement parts go as long as you stick to a major brand no more than 20 years old parts should be available for quite a while. The biggest expense you will likely run into will be a clutch replacement ( a tractor that has or had a loader on it generally will require clutch work much sooner than a field tractor ). Also if you can find a tractor mechanic or experienced farmer near you who could look over the machine for you that would be time/money well spent. Gerry

 

[john_bud]

It sounds like you are on a fairly small patch of ground. Like 40 acres or less?

If so, you may want to think about a tractor that was made for plots that size. Ford 2000, 3000 or 4000 series. Get the 3 cylinder version as they are newer with a little more modern stuff. They are dead reliable, the diesel versions are fuel sippers (but can be harder to start in winter w/o a good block heater) and parts are VERY easy to get and very easy to work on.

Heck, it would probably be a good high school shop project to restore one....


You can normally find a good 2-3000 ford with 8 speed trans in the 4-5000 range. Add a loader and the price may bump up to 6000.

The older ford tractors like the early 4 cylinder 2000, 4000 and the hundred series and even the 8n, 2n, 9n can do what you want, but have fewer and fewer modern aspects.

Spring is a good time to hit the auctions, craigs list, machinery trader etc.

jb

 

[MasseyWV]

I am in a very similar situation and had originally decided to purchase a new tractor because the prices of used tractors in my area were close to that of new ones.

Now that I have had time to carefully evaluate my options, I have decided to wait it out and look at used machines again.

 

[mojoinco]

Started with a yard sale $500 Case VAC 4 or 5 years ago as a 'technology demonstrator' and implement collector. I am reasonably mechanical and this is an easy tractor to work on (points, gas engine, generator and NO power steering). Plus, low on the collector list. No issues with the Case specific parts I needed.

Went round-and-round similar issues (save the house and truck garden). But both are out there on a future wish list. Anyhow, started at $5-10k. Then $15k (had a used 3400 Kubota with 120 hours come up). Ended up with a TN55SA (the cab was too cheap to not buy). And spent in the low 20's. Whoops. I too am on the 20 year plan. The cab will be very appreciated for 9 months of the year, and even more as a way to keep the electronics in good condition (20 years to go). But will require high clearance (too large to be ducking under the old apple tree anyhow).

I did a lot of work with a box scraper with the Case. Just took thinking ahead. Gear drive was slow to use when doing a lot of fwd/back manuevering work. New one has power shuttle (nice compromise with hst). Shuttle shift is a big step forward (even without auto clutch).

Live pto would have been very nice (new one has independent pto). Either one allows you to pause the fwd motion and still run a brush hog (etc).

The value call is a 2wd unit. MFD/4wd/etc are a premium. If winter snow removal is a significant issue (versus a rusty pickup with blade)....

Loaders pretty much need power steering if your wife is going to use it.

Older units may have 6 volt systems versus 12 volts (matters is you are going to run 12 electric accessories like a pump -- can always strap on a deep cycle battery, or use a pto powered one). The suggestion on the 3 point is also true -- my unit had just enough to lift the box scraper. It did move the 5' brush hog though. Many old IH's had 2 point hitches (convertible). A lot of older units used drawbar implements. Nothing wrong with it, and many still around (disks, plows, etc).

Wide front end is preferable. And a heavy tractor is easier to use (mine isn't particulalry heavy). That's one of many reasons old IH H & M's (and others) are surprisingly useful today.

Hydraulic pumps can be added to the PTO. Prince makes a popular unit (that's another reason to have a live pto). Not too expensive. And easy to add.

My TN will NOT be anywhere near as easy to repair as my Case -- lots of technology to consider. As to 'green farming' an older propane unit may be for you. Propane engines last a long time, put off less emissions (comparable engines of course). You might look around for some of those old vineyard type tractors too (I seem to remember NY has some wine grape areas). Might have a reasonable resale, as they are kind of odd looking and unknown.

 

[mojoinco]

Started with a yard sale $500 Case VAC 4 or 5 years ago as a 'technology demonstrator' and implement collector. I am reasonably mechanical and this is an easy tractor to work on (points, gas engine, generator and NO power steering). Plus, low on the collector list. No issues with the Case specific parts I needed.

Went round-and-round similar issues (save the house and truck garden). But both are out there on a future wish list. Anyhow, started at $5-10k. Then $15k (had a used 3400 Kubota with 120 hours come up). Ended up with a TN55SA (the cab was too cheap to not buy). And spent in the low 20's. Whoops. I too am on the 20 year plan. The cab will be very appreciated for 9 months of the year, and even more as a way to keep the electronics in good condition (20 years to go). But will require high clearance (too large to be ducking under the old apple tree anyhow).

I did a lot of work with a box scraper with the Case. Just took thinking ahead. Gear drive was slow to use when doing a lot of fwd/back manuevering work. New one has power shuttle (nice compromise with hst). Shuttle shift is a big step forward (even without auto clutch).

Live pto would have been very nice (new one has independent pto). Either one allows you to pause the fwd motion and still run a brush hog (etc).

The value call is a 2wd unit. MFD/4wd/etc are a premium. If winter snow removal is a significant issue (versus a rusty pickup with blade)....

Loaders pretty much need power steering if your wife is going to use it.

Older units may have 6 volt systems versus 12 volts (matters is you are going to run 12 electric accessories like a pump -- can always strap on a deep cycle battery, or use a pto powered one). The suggestion on the 3 point is also true -- my unit had just enough to lift the box scraper. It did move the 5' brush hog though. Many old IH's had 2 point hitches (convertible). A lot of older units used drawbar implements. Nothing wrong with it, and many still around (disks, plows, etc).

Wide front end is preferable. And a heavy tractor is easier to use (mine isn't particulalry heavy). That's one of many reasons old IH H & M's (and others) are surprisingly useful today.

Hydraulic pumps can be added to the PTO. Prince makes a popular unit (that's another reason to have a live pto). Not too expensive. And easy to add.

My TN will NOT be anywhere near as easy to repair as my Case -- lots of technology to consider. As to 'green farming' an older propane unit may be for you. Propane engines last a long time, put off less emissions (comparable engines of course). You might look around for some of those old vineyard type tractors too (I seem to remember NY has some wine grape areas). Might have a reasonable resale, as they are kind of odd looking and unknown.

 

[browns40]

Hi Mark,

Sounds like a wonderful plan you guys have worked out!

How mechanically oriented are you?

It's certainly no guarantee (as new stuff breaks too), but with age, lack of use, or an extreme amount of use, parts fail on equipment... if you are pretty handy and can diagnose & fix most of your more common wear items, a used tractor becomes more & more desireable... also important to consider is what kind of downtime can you afford on your equipment...

IF you have the income coming in to afford the payments that come with a newer piece of equipment, that would be the way I would lean, just because your focus is clear at this point: get the farm going.

"Fix the tractor" will throw more time constraints on you, whereas a warranty takes your part in the fixing out for at least a few years.

Best of luck!

 

[Egon]

Welcome.

So you need a tractor for the long haul???

Look over all the jobs it's required for and pick out what size and attachments would be needed. Remember it could be used for some jobs building the house. The loader is mandatory, not optional. Then do some looking around. [ shopping ]

Look some more and revise you requirements several times! Shop some more.

Then pick the tractor for the long haul and take your budget lumps Early instead of later.

And do keep us updated on the straw bale house.

 

[Volfandt]

To parrot what other s have said, theres nothing wrong w/going used as long as you know how to turn a wrench

My 1st tractor was a 48 TE20 w/a 5' bush hog and a pond scoop on the 3PH to serve as a sort of poor mans loader. It worked out great for me as I added more implemenets. A box blade helped cut my driveway, a potatoe plow (called a middle buster around here) did very well as a trencher for plumbing and electric burial and a boom pole gave me a poor mans cherry picker that couild lift nearly 1000 lbs.
But I spent many an evening keeping the TE20 going. It was a 4 cylinder overhead valve gas engine that was still 6 volts and surprisingly the parts were still available.

On the used side I'd look for an MF35 or a newer MF135, they are great older tractors and they're everywhere. They're out there within your revised price range but may need some TLC.
There are great deals out there on new machines with 0% financing so it would probably pay to at least give 'em a glance or two

As for me I've now moved into estate maintenance and sold the venerable ole TE20 and went to a smaller machine w/an HST, FEL, MMM & BH and am spoiled beyond recognition. I know that if I need a larger machine I'll not only look new but also into one w/a conditioned cab w/ all the creature comforts.
Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[greggh]

Welcome to TBN.
It sounds as if you have a good plan and have already started with payback by utilizing the farmers markets. It is a problem deciding on used or new. You are the one to make that decision, but if you know or know someone that knows tractors, used can be very beneficial and cost effective.

15 years ago I had a friend that knew tractors when I purchased my first. It was a 2020 JD gas tractor. It had approx 50 hp and was a 60's model. It was a basic gear tractor 2WD. I did have the clutch and starter replaced. It was a great tractor, in fact it was so great that someone borrowed it and forgot to return it or the implements that went with it.

Buying a tractor can be frightening sometimes, but the more you search the more you learn, which make the experience more confortable and fun.

Good luck on your search and hopefully you can find a solution that will serve your needs. Remember to post pictures when you find your tractor. We like pictures.

 

[Mech]

I had a bad experience with a gray market tractor, the dealer took it back I bought a new JD 790 with a no interest loan. I'm definitely biased by this experience. The gray market tractor was a Yanmar also (the 790 is a Yanmar design) and while there are many good dealers you have to be mechanically inclined if your dealer isn't close. I'm mechanically inclined but didn't have the time for all the work my used tractor was going to require. Also I feel that a used tractor has to be significantly less than 1/2 the price of a new tractor especially when the tractor is 30 years old which many of the gray market tractors are. I have owned other used tractors before, JD and Ford, and had very good service out of both of them.

 

[BungeeII]

An old tractor is nice, especially having saved money.... until you really NEED it to get a job done and you cannot because of mechanical troubles.

A NEW tractor is really unnecessary.... until you really NEED a tractor and don't have time to wrench on one.

The wildcard, of course, is how much you have to spend.

People knock boat ownership a lot. "Your second greatest thing in life will be buying your first boat. Your greatest thing in life will be selling it."

Having owned boats and tractors, I'd say that phrase applies more to tractors than boats. Nothing is worse than having a tractor that's just barely getting a job done. There's enough success with it that you can't justify a new expense, but the difficulty in completing each job is just high enough that it really takes the fun out of it. I've floated around here for years, sitting on the fence between keeping a machine that's almost good enough and going out to buy a new machine. In fact, starting this year out again I'm dreading another year in the seat of my old Ford and wearing out my new CC lawn mower.

Buy new and keep up the service schedules as your dealer recommends or as the manufacturer recommends. If you're teachers and new to tractors, it's safe to say you're not mechanics. Knowing that, get a tractor with a warranty that you'll appreciate enough to have proper maintenance done.

 

[LP Farmer]

Wow! Thank you all for the response.

To clarify a few things: I am more of a hammer and nails guy, but I am open to learning how to wrench. I should add that there is mechanic about 2 miles away and the farmer next door is mechanical and has helped a great deal including looking over used tractors at an auction (although he has been pushing new in order to avoid the headache).

The farm is 30 acres. 2/3 of that is forest, while the other 3rd is the open (although with plenty of saplings and brush) field with a 1/2 acre pond.

I stopped into a few dealers todau and was surprised at the wide range of financing options which ranged form 0% for 60 months - 7.6% for 60 months.

The dealers I spoke with felt that I needed to be in a 30 -33 hp with a minimum hp of 27. Don't know if it was an attempt to push up the sales, but after telling them that the financial means was limited they insisted a 30 hp was still best option.

Thanks again.

Mark

 

[AchingBack]

John Deere has a fantastic website with Tractor Selection Tools. It really helped me when I was researching. Tractor Selection Tools