Need Surveying Advice

/ Need Surveying Advice
  • Thread Starter
#21  
Homebrew, Shaley, Zuespaul:

You guys are obviously VERY knowledgeable about surveying. Unfortunately, I am not. As I explore this thing and start looking for corner markings etc., hopefully I can continue to pick your collective brains and not only accomplish something, but learn as well. Thanks for being so helpful. I am always amazed by the knowledge base here on TBN.
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #22  
TN, when the trees are called out the tree itself IS the corner marker. Get a long tape and start measuring and looking for evidence...old fences. Try and find the original trees.

Zeuspaul
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #23  
There is a good knowledge base here, but just be sure that when you are ready to have the work done you know what you want and then have one or several surveyors give you a cost estimate. Don't rely on what folks here paid in another area. You will need the whole tract surveyed, not just part. It just dosen't work that way. Get someone local who may have a history in that area, chances are they are familiar with the adjoining tracts called for in your deed and have a knowledge base already in tact which may save hours of research. The methods I see outlined here so far are a great tool for recon work but in no way can be relied upon for any accuracy.

Be very specific in what you want when getting a cost estimate. Do you want the property lines staked for fencing or will you be happy just knowing the end points of the lines ? Make a lot of difference from a cost standpoint. More time in the field = more $$$, but may save down the road.
Mostly wooded means GPS is probably not a viable tool as the tree canopy will cause problems, though they may be lessened through the winter months, unless you are talking pine woods.

Good Luck,
Bruce R.P.L.S. 5781
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #24  
A friend of mine had a piece of land with similar instructions on his boundries. He spent quite a bit of time out in the woods looking for the old boundries and ended up finding most of them. They were slash marks on the side of a tree. Once he recognized what the marks looked like, it was allot easier to find the others.

In the end, he had to hire a surveyor to find two corners.

My parents home is on almost 3 acres and my dad wanted to put up a fence. He found every corner but one. He gave up and hired a surveyor.

In both cases, the surveyors were able to find those corners from other locations without surveying the entire parcel. It was just a few hours work for them and the costs were a few hundred bucks. That was in California from five to ten years ago.

I bought 300 acres with a business partner and sub-devided it into three parcels. We sold two of them and I kept the third one. The survey cost for that was $9,000 two years ago.

I've bought and sold a few homes and the average price for an in town survey was $500. I've heard prices are climbing, but I haven't sold a house in two years.

Eddie
 
/ Need Surveying Advice
  • Thread Starter
#25  
I am thinking at this point I would just like to find the corners rather than an entire survey. I don't plan to sell the place, but I would like to at least know the general lines.

There are 2 tracts on this property due to a county road running through it. It is on both sides of the road. I know the borders very well on one of the tracts due to fences and the road. The second tract is the one that is somewhat of a mystery to me. It is mostly wooded and the line through the woods is pretty fuzzy in my mind. Maybe if I can just find the corners, it will make me feel better.
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #26  
I used the aerial photographs on zillow.com and topozone.com in combination with a map like shaley prepared for you to *rough in* my property lines. I now know where most of them are to within a couple of feet which is good enough for my current needs. I can only see the inaccessible rear line from a distance of about 300 ft but I was able to determine from the photographs and record distances that my lower neighbor is not encroaching on my land.

You should know approximately where your lines are so you can protect your interests. If you or a neighbor constructs anything (buildings, fences, leach fields) near a property line then it's time to get serious and consider a property survey.

Do the two tracts abut? If so and you know the lines on the first tract then you have a baseline to work from to find the approximate locations of the second tract. You can do it all with a long tape. You can construct angles using distances.

Maybe shaley can balance the lots for you on the maps he prepared. Both lots have similar closures which leads me to believe there isn't a bust...just measurement errors which could be evenly distributed over the entire survey. Also if you tell us how they fit together perhaps it will give us further insight. i.e. tract one is east of tract two and has a common line? or???

Zeuspaul
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #27  
I'm working on a project now for a client ( a major corp. know to everyone in the free world) who just bought a tract of several hundred acres here in East Texas. One of their engineers did the aerial map thing, picked a lat and long off the map, traveled to the given coords via a handheld GPS and had a water well installed. Only problem is that the well is 20 feet into the adjoining property. Now the neighbor gets a free well, gets paid damages, and gets the property line in question staked for the new fence to be built between the two properties.

In this particular instance, I could have located the two corners on the line without surveying the entire tract because I had done some work in this area back in the mid-80's and had already located the old iron axle at the North corner and the pine knot buried under 2 foot of silt in a slough 3500 feet to the South.

The property descriptions you have to work with will not allow the methods given here so far. They were already balanced to the best of ability when they were written. They give a good starting point for recon work, but thats about it. Your description is given to the nearest 1/2 degree and 1/2 pole and was probably written sometime in the 1800's. Talk to your neighbors and see if they have had any survey work done on your common lines. If so, see who they had do them, they may have information in their records which would allow them to identify the corners for you. When dealing with a closed figure ( or in this case a figure which almost closes ) it's not just the distance but also the angular relationhip between the adjoining lines which come into play. And then too, as already stated, if the corners called for are found they hold over given bearing and distance. That is why I say you can't just have one line surveyed. I'm not trying to drum up business, just trying to keep you from wasting money. It's not uncommon for lines of those lengths to be off 100' feet or more when dealing with an old property description such as yours. Unless you find a surveyor who has a history in that area, the most anyone will be able to tell you is "Here are two points that might almost be kinda sorta close to to where your corners might probably oughta be".

Bruce
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #28  
One might expect an error of 20 feet or more with a hand held GPS. Lease lines shown online can be within ten feet or so or they can be off by hundreds of feet. Both are the case in my area. Aerial photographs can have significant distortion. They can be very useful recon tools. BruceR gives very good advice if one needs a survey.

TN should be able to find his corners with a tape measure. A tape measure can be used for just distances or it can also be used to develop angles too.

I don't think anyone has recommended TN survey his property. The recommendations are to help him find the corners of his property that has already been surveyed.... recon as noted by BruceR. However recon can lead to the discovery of the original monuments and then TN would have a good basis for knowing where his property lines are.

Even if he finds the original monuments they may not represent the true lines. If there is a conflict with a neighboring piece of property the neighbor's property may or may not take precedence.

Some old surveys were not balanced. The 40 ft closure in TN's survey is most likely not all in the last course as our method of calculation seems to indicate. Balancing the data facilitates working with the data mathmatically.

Zeuspaul
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #29  
BruceR said:
One of their engineers did the aerial map thing... Only problem is that the well is 20 feet into the adjoining property.
I saw one like this when I worked for a Large Government Agency. There was a rush to put a commuter-rail boarding platform in a growing community. I was sent down to see how much harm had been done to a neighbor where the platform extended into his parcel.

All I found was that the sawed-off portion of the platform had been dragged back across the property line, leaving a few bulldozer tracks and some smashed tumbleweed as the only apparent damage to his vacant commercial lot.

I listened for an hour while this wealty speculator showed me every record he could think of showing his cost for acqusition and rezoning. Finally he gave up and just laughed. He knew the commuter station nearby enhanced the value of his parcel, while he had no provable damages.

Apparently he thought he could get a big settlement for his pain and anguish, but all I could put in my report was that he never found a single document to show economic loss. I don't think his claim was approved for payment.

Your tax dollars at work.
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #30  
Now that you know the general lay of the tracts. The next step might be to go out there with a metal detector and see if there is some iron at the corners. This is presuming there isn't a lot of scrap laying around to throw you off.
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #31  
zeuspaul said:
TN should be able to find his corners with a tape measure. A tape measure can be used for just distances or it can also be used to develop angles too.

The recommendations are to help him find the corners of his property that has already been surveyed.... recon as noted by BruceR. However recon can lead to the discovery of the original monuments and then TN would have a good basis for knowing where his property lines are.

Even if he finds the original monuments they may not represent the true lines. If there is a conflict with a neighboring piece of property the neighbor's property may or may not take precedence.


Zeuspaul

The tape measure is OK for small lots but I need to see someone carry it out for a couple thousand feet before I will believe it can be done. If trying to tape or "chain" the distances you will need a 100' steel surveyors tape ( pick it up used on ebay ) and be sure to apply the proper tension (to compensate for sag) and to keep it level, plumbing it if going up or down hill.

It is true that Junior/Senior rights can come into play here. The deed to this tract and all the adjoining tracts probably need to be run back to the soverign. All the more reason to try and find someone with a history in your area who may have already done all of that, or go down to the courthouse and start pulling deeds. Some of the adjoiners deeds may show witness trees near your corners which you can then strap distances from to locate your corners.

This is an old property description which was probably run out with a compass and chain. The 1/2 degrees and 1/2 rods may well be the result of someone having already done their best to balance the traverse. The distances called for may well be short by a couple of hundred feet, that is usually the case in my area as the person purchasing the land was often pressed into service as tail chainman to try and keep the surveying cost down. It didn't take them long to figure out that if the took an extra step before they hollered "CHAIN" that they would wind up with more land than they were paying for. Also when they original tracts were carved from the soverign the surveyors would make sure there was some extra, as land was cheap and they didn't want to cheat the purchaser out of any by mistake.

Boundary re-construction is my passion, much more money in construction surveying or city surveying but it's parcels such as these that keep me interested.

On another note, the road may well have moved since this description was written since as it was probably more of a cart trail at the time. The parcel lines may also have old cart trails along them as well as it was often the custom to use the line the surveyors cleared as a road between two large tracts. Look for a depression or a hump with a ditch on either side apprx. 6-12 foot wide, don't be mislead by the timber, there may well be trees 24" or greater dia. growing there at this point. Look for blazed trees, these would have a blaze facing the line if they were within 4 foot of either side of it or a blaze on line if the tree was on the line. Trees with an "X" will indicate a corner. Trees with an "X" and hacks above and below or base blazed trees will indicate that it is a Witness tree for the corner. Get down and squint and try to see a difference in the timber, one tract or the other was probably logged in the past and you may well be able to discern a difference. If sassafrass gows in your area look for stands of sassafrass trees. These typically grow in open areas along the edges of fields. If the field lays fallow and timber grows, the sassafrass will remain. Look for a line of trees larger in dia. than the rest, that would indicate the location of the line, there may well be two lines 6-12 feet apart, this would also indicate an old road between two tracts.

If you try to run this out with a compass be sure you are familiar with declination and how to apply it to your compass readings. Don't rely on what a USC&GS based topo tells you the declination is, they are probably twenty years old and your declination will have changed considerably since then. I do solar observations to determined "True Bearing" and adjust my declination to match.

Take this as an oportunity to go and meet the neighbors, maybe they have knowledge of the location of the lines.

In this case, mathematics and sat photos will get you started in the right direction but you have to get down in the dirt and gather the true evidence of the line. If the trees called for at the corners are gone, you should still be able to locate the stump holes. I'm not sure what a wild Cherry root tastes like, but pine tastes like turpentine.

Bruce
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #32  
I have two surveying questions? How prevelent are those length units found in metes and bounds like poles, chains etc. do I need to add that to my software? 2. What method would you use to balance HobbyFarmer's plat, Compass rule or Transit rule?
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #33  
BruceR said:
If you try to run this out with a compass be sure you are familiar with declination and how to apply it to your compass readings. Don't rely on what a USC&GS based topo tells you the declination is, they are probably twenty years old and your declination will have changed considerably since then. I do solar observations to determined "True Bearing" and adjust my declination to match.
Bruce

Bruce,
I have a small 2.52 acre, heavily wooded, square parcel with the northwest and southeast corners marked by pipe stakes. Property lines run within 1/2 degree of north/south - east/west. I certainly do not trust a magnetic compass here an a very mineralized area of northern kalifornia.

Can I use "solar noon" to help me find the two other corners? The northeast corner is probably marked by a pipe stake that I have not been able to find and the southwest corner is most likely within the surface area of a "private" gravel road.

The property lines are around 480 feet long each direction.

Thanks,
Bob
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #34  
Bob

There are many *norths*. astronomic, grid, and magnetic which changes over time. Which one do you have??

You can get a pretty good fix on astronomic north by sighting the north star at the tail end of the little dipper.

The best thing to do is use the relationship between the two found monuments to establish direction to the remaining two. On a wooded lot it may be difficult as you probably do not have a direct line of sight between the two found monuments.

Have you tried a metal detector?

Zeuspaul
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #35  
Bruce, Many thanks for a truly intersting post. You educated many people ehre i am positive. i can see how your job is like puzzle solving every day, it was facinating to read your advice.
 
/ Need Surveying Advice
  • Thread Starter
#36  
Bruce.....I totally concur with Rox that your post was quite informative. I can tell you have a passion for what you do and I'm sure as a consequence you as very good at it.

Wouldn't it be fun for you, Shaley, Zeuspaul, Homebrew (I hope I'm not leaving anybody out) and me to convene at my place and work this whole deal out. I would certainly supply the Budweiser (or Diet Coke if that's you preference). We'd have those lines marked in no time flat.

Anyway thanks for ALL the good advice. Let me say again, it never ceases to amaze me the depth of knowledge that exists here in TBN.
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #37  
Thanks Guys,

Shaley:
These units are not found much these days except in very old property descriptions. Today a 100' steel surveyors tape is commonly refered to as a chain, but when called for in a property description it means Gunter's Chain, which is 66 feet. Everything else pretty much descends from that. An acre is 10 square Chains, a rod or perch is 16.5 feet which is 1/4 Chain. If you get into varas it is a whole 'nother story. There are about 30 definitions for vara. Compass rule was traditionaly used on old traverses. Be sure and balance the angles before applying Compass rule. (N-3)180, with "N" being the number of sides to your figure.

Bob: Like Zeuspaul said, there are many definitions for North. You would need to know which was used on your property description. The bearings shown on your deed are mainly used to define the angular relationship between two legs of a figure. Since you have the NW and SE corners located, your best bet is to apply your declination ( whithin a degree should work in your case ) to compass and try to "strap" in your other two corners. Measure the distance with a 100' chain from NWC toward NEC and mark the spot. Do the same thing from SEC toward NEC. You may have to repeat a couple times to get the two points half-way close. Then take a metal locator and start sweeping the area.

TNhobbyfarmer: I would be more than happy to give it a shot on my next vacation. Only problem is, I just took my first vacation in over five years, and I would need to get over to LA and help tallyho8 mark one of his lines first.

Bruce
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #38  
TNhobbyfarmer, Thanks for the invite, may be able to visit someday. I really like that country out that way. I think this year is "get the cabin finished year" though. Keep posting what you find out and we can add info to the plat map as we go. I posted the maps so when (if) you hire a surveyor you will know exactly what you need done and wont waste your money. I've been writing software to draw plats and wanted too see how it did with large metes and bounds. Based on what Bruce said I wont add pole units, just keep things in feet. I need to add the balancing routines.

Bruce, I'm sure you mean (N-2)*180. I've always let my data collector do the adjustments and then just download the COGO. But I need to add that to the my software.
 
/ Need Surveying Advice #39  
Here is a screen shot of the software I'm working on. I'd like to add GPS overlays to it.
I hear that by late next year consumer GPS units will be accurate within +-1ft. Currently I think it is -+10ft. So you might be able to get a coordinate on a known corner and we can overlay it on the plat.
 

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/ Need Surveying Advice #40  
BruceR said:
... Look for blazed trees, these would have a blaze facing the line if they were within 4 foot of either side of it or a blaze on line if the tree was on the line. Trees with an "X" will indicate a corner. Trees with an "X" and hacks above and below or base blazed trees will indicate that it is a Witness tree for the corner...

In my area of NC the boundries are marked with two slashes on the tree nearest the property line. Corners are three slashes AND should have three trees marked around the corner. This way you should be able to figure out where the corner is located. SHOULD. :D

If the land has been recently surveyed you might still find flagging in the trees. I have seen the tree grow around flagging that was years old.

Later,
Dan
 

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