Need help with a strange trailer problem

[montanaman]

Well I have owned a trailer for a few years now that just tows like junk. It's a 24' gooseneck rated at 14'000 lbs and has Dexter axles with slipper spring suspension. The reason I have put up with it for this long is that life just goes by fast.

When I bought the trailer and towed it home empty, within a few miles, I noticed that it seemed to buck when you hit bumps in the road. I figured that with some weight on it, it would calm down. I made a few highway trips with it loaded and it never got any better. I called the dealer about it and was told that they build two of these a day and just don't get any complaints about them. We talked about the hitch I had, the gooseneck height, etc. He wanted me to tow it back to him so he could have a look but winter set in and it just never happened. I have a few trailers so this only gets pulled with two tractors on it. Time went by and the next time I needed it, I got upset again and called him. At this point, we agreed that there is no reason that I should put up with a trailer bucking like this and I was told that he would pick it up and take a look at it. As I'm sure you guessed, more time went by and that didn't happen. So I still have a low miles 04 trailer that bucks!

To explain the problem, it is like the jolly green giant is grabbiing the gooseneck ball and shoving the truck back and forth when you hit a bump or even expansion joints on the road. It is bad enough at times that if my wife is with me, she has to cross her arms across her chest.

It has done this with both a HD2500 and a 1 Ton dually, both with B&W turnover ball hitches.

The last time I talked to the dealer, he suggested that there could be a chance that the equalizers and spring eye bolts were all too tight??? I don't know if this could cause this and why it took him two years to think of this but I just wonderd if anyone thought this could be the trouble? I guess it's easy to picture the new kid not knowing any better and jamming everything down with an impact gun.

I can't continue towing this thing the way it is and will not sell it as is but I sure can't just go buy another trailer and burn this one up for scrap so any suggestions would be appreciated!!

I will leave the company name out of this as I think they are a good company and they produce a lot of trailers. I have also talked to a few people with the exact same trailer that have reported NO problems. I have measured the frame rails to the spring hangers and it seems like everything is square.

I have looked at every aspect of the truck and hitch and like I said, the trailer has behaved the same on two different trucks.

The thing is still buried in snow so I haven't had a chance to look at it but I will be needing it soon.

Thanks,
Ken

 

[BrianW]

Can't really help you on this one, but if it makes you feel any better I have a fifth wheel travel trailer that tows like a dream as far as sway is concerned. Tractor trailers do not even affect it like they did with my travel trailer, but when I hit bumps it feels like the hand of god is pushing and pulling my pickup! My wife has no need to cross her arms though (unfortunately).

 

[montanaman]

Can't really help you on this one, but if it makes you feel any better I have a fifth wheel travel trailer that tows like a dream as far as sway is concerned. Tractor trailers do not even affect it like they did with my travel trailer, but when I hit bumps it feels like the hand of god is pushing and pulling my pickup! My wife has no need to cross her arms though (unfortunately).

Just curious as to what you tow it with?? I had been thinking of changing out the shocks on my truck as I hear some find much better towing with good aftermarket shocks.

Just hate the thought of making the mortgage payment on the truck ANY replacing parts with 3,000 miles on them too!

Ken

 

[George2615]

I will agree with what the dealer told you that the equalizer and spring eye bolts may be over tight not allowing proper movement. I'm guessing you have electric brakes and no surge brake that could be malfunctioning. Also check the height of the gooseneck mount. Mine was set too high when I got it and the trailer frame at the axles was not level. What tipped me off to this was when I replaced my brakes I noticed that the rear axle tires had rubbed against the under side of the deck boards where the front axle tires had not. This put more weight on the rear axle than the front but did not cause the back and forth motion you describe. Mine is 20' plus 4' dovetail and I'm guessing yours is too. It may just be the distance between your trucks rear wheels and the trailer wheels is setting up a harmonic movement at the road expansion joints. You can also check the spring eye bushings for wear. Forgot to mention I tow mine with a 2500HD also but have the extended cab. A friend of mine has the same 2500HD but no extended cab and he gets that front and back movement with any trailer he tows. He says its because of the shorter wheelbase.

 

[montanaman]

I will agree with what the dealer told you that the equalizer and spring eye bolts may be over tight not allowing proper movement. I'm guessing you have electric brakes and no surge brake that could be malfunctioning. Also check the height of the gooseneck mount. Mine was set too high when I got it and the trailer frame at the axles was not level. This put more weight on the rear axle than the front but did not cause the back and forth motion you describe. Mine is 20' plus 4' dovetail and I'm guessing yours is too. It may just be the distance between your trucks rear wheels and the trailer wheels is setting up a harmonic movement at the road expansion joints. You can also check the spring eye bushings for wear.

Yep, same deal, 20+4. Electric brakes too. The trailer does sit just a tad high in the front but it doesn't have the high-rise gooseneck like some trailers do. If I go to the next lower hole, I'll run the risk of a neck to truck problem so I'm stuck with what I have!

I figure it is less than ideal but there is nothing I can do about that and if the equalizers ARE working, the load should still be balanced between the axles.

With a good load, it is pretty close to level.

That is one suggestion I would have for anyone looking for a gooseneck equipment trailer. A high gooseneck is good insurance to have!! I've been in some off-camber situations where I've been SOOO close to the trailer contacting the bed! I've also avoided a few situations that I wasn't too sure about but there could be that one day that I'm not thinking about it and that would really stink!!

Ken

 

[BTDT]

First opportunity, take it back to him. He has already said he would look to see what problem is, let him. I know you said he would pick up, the second time you called, but I would take it and give him the chance to make it right. You may get a "new" trailer if he see's it's not been abused, and you have a legitimate complaint. Good luck.

 

[CATMAN]

I think George2615 might possibly be on to something with the electric brake system. If there was a broken return spring inside the hub that was suppose to hold the brake shoes in the "released" position, but if broke it, would allow the magnet to swing freely on every bump. This may cause the brakes to intermittently lock and unlock. I would think you would hear tire squeal if it truely lock up the wheel/tire for any distance thou. Just a thought.

 

[BrianW]

montanaman,
I tow my fifth wheel with a Dodge 3/4 ton diesel. I have only had one fifth wheel and I have never towed a gooseneck so the other answers you are getting here are much more informed than mine. I have talked to a lot of other fifth wheel camper folks and they have all described the problem just like you did. Of course we are all towing loaded trailers. In the fifth wheel hitch market there is an air ride hitch to help soften the "Jolly Green Giant" effect.
I have a friend who has a 4X4 that sits high. He could not lower his fifth wheel hitch enough to make his trailer sit level due to truck bed clearance problems. The trailer dealer flipped the axles on the trailer to raise the trailer up. I don't know if that is an option on your trailer.

 

[Bird]

All good advice so far. Like BrianW, my brother's 38' three axle heavy Carriage fifth-wheel had a tendency to buck when he hit bumps. He tows with a F350, 2-WD, crew cab dually powerstroke. He solve the problem by changing to a Moryde pin box attachment on the hitch that absorbs that motion. We went to the Dallas RV Show at Market Hall today and I noticed lots of the big fifth-wheel trailers were equipped with that Moryde or another brand that does the same thing.

But of course that can't be done with the gooseneck trailer. Getting everything level will undoubtedly help some, but sometimes very simple things can be seen by hitch experts that others will overlook. It was in 1975 that I bought a little 18' conventional pull, 4000 pound travel trailer and let the dealer install the hitch on my Olds. It looked good but bucked even without hitting bumps. The RV dealer sent me to a hitch dealer who took one look at and said to raise the ball one inch and tilt it back about 1/8 inch and that fixed it.

 

[montanaman]

First opportunity, take it back to him. He has already said he would look to see what problem is, let him. I know you said he would pick up, the second time you called, but I would take it and give him the chance to make it right. You may get a "new" trailer if he see's it's not been abused, and you have a legitimate complaint. Good luck.

That has been the plan for a long time! You know, this is the reason that I have been suggesting to customers to buy local even if it isn't the best price and it turns out that I am just as guilty!!

We don't have a lot of trailer places near me and the ones that we do,don't usually stock gooseneck trailers, so I made a 100 mile or so trip each way to get this one and finding the time to make that trip again is tougher that it should be!!

Hopefully in the future I'll be stocking and selling a few trailers and at that point, I'll want to sell the one I have and replace it with the brand I'll be selling. Really bad business practice to sell one brand but use another!!

If the spring parts aren't way too tight, I'm going to just have to make the time to get this back to where I bought it. The weather has turned cold again here but I'm going to work on getting it moved and looked over this Sunday. I need it to move a few loaders and a backhoe that are on pallets because my bumper pull has sides and doesn't work well for side loading so it needs to come out now either way.

At this point, 15 gallons of fuel and most of the day is cheap if it can make this problem go away!

I also think that as severe as this problem is, the owner of the company that built it needs to experience it with a test drive! This is a c-channel frame trailer but he swears that the channel is a higher weight per foot that most of the I beam used for trailers and actually has less deflection so it can't be caused by the gooseneck flexing. That's really what the problem feels like to me though?

Ken

 

[montanaman]

I guess I should have mentioned that the HD2500 that I towed this with was an extended cab long bed and the dually is a crew cab long bed so I should have more than enough wheel base.

Ken

 

[RobS]

My fifth wheel RV does the same thing and my bumper pull flatbed does some bucking but it's entirely different than the fifth wheel. Likely has to do with where the hitch point is on the vehicle. On the fifth wheel versus your gooseneck, the hitch is higher which seems to me would make it worse. Ideally, the hitch would be right at the axle centerline in which case you would have no torque loads, only straight loads.

Have you had others drive it and can you pull a different trailer to compare? Might just be the nature of the beast.

 

[jarokoro]

I would tend to believe it is from trailer flexing or as George2615 already mentioned harmonic movement. I have a custom fabricated 20 ft GN channel iron trailer. When I picked it up from the trailer manufacture, I could not drive it faster than 40 miles an hour without bucking. I had to drive about 20 miles and at first thought well maybe its because its empty?, light weight?, GN height
? and then noticed the trailer would start flexing and twisting and it would be extremely exaggerated by any bumps or road transitions making as you say your chest hurt.

When I got home I called the manufacture and they tried to tell me there was nothing wrong. Therefore, I checked the GN it was off so I adjusted it and there was no change, so I loaded my Tractor some improvement but not much. So I took the trailer back and took the trailer manufacture for a ride. Within two minutes and three pavement transitions he said he had enough.

We went back to the shop and they did some bridging, stiffened the trailer, and put a rail on it. No problems since. Pulled it all over this past year and twice to Michigan. This last time I went to Michigan I pulled it empty and picked up a backhoe attachment. The time before my wife went with and I was pulling my tractor and bushhog, scraper and rake. My wife thought the ride was better than her 2003 Suburban. I was pulling the set up with my 2006 3500 4x4 see pic.

 

[Ford960]

I agree with jarokoro on this, trailer frame flexing is causing the trailer to set up a bucking motion in the truck. It really comes down to the manufacterer building a stiffer frame and adding things like a torque tube to prevent the twisting and flexing.
Also, Bird mentioned a Mor-ride system for fifth wheels and I don't know if it's Mor-ride but I have seen a gooseneck cushioned hitch tube adapter. I checked all my normal saved trailer websites but couldn't find one but I know that it exists.

BTW, Nice rig jarokoro.

 

[jarokoro]

Heres a link to a cushioning coupler, but I think unless the trailer gets a little stiffer you will still have problems.
PopUp Industries: Gooseneck Gooseneck Cushion Couplers

 

[montanaman]

Thanks for the input. Just seems like my life story to pay for things after really thinking hard about who to give my money to and I still end up let down. The truck is sitting outside now with the tailgate down because I had a bed liner sprayed in it yesterday and the tailgate latch no longer works. It's 10deg outside and I really don't care to spend MY time out in the cold fixing what worked perfect before someone else touched it!

I'm still thinking about the flexing. The trailer I have is channel but it is a deck over style and the main frame and gooseneck channel is at least 8", could be 10" channel. The uprights from the front of the frame to the gooseneck have a very large heavy triangular plate welded in like most do. If it is flexing, it would all have to be where the front of the main frame is welded to the gooseneck uprights because on the deck side of these uprights, there is no triangulation.

Wish I had time to take the truck to the bed liner guy and the trailer to the trailer guy and actually have them both fix the problems but I've been on earth long enough to know better.

What puzzles me is that I have not talked to anyone with this same trailer that has had towing issues. There are a lot of this brand in my area and any time I see one, I ask the owner. I have a tractor customer that has two of them and loves them.

Guess I'm just lucky!

Ken

 

[jarokoro]

Montanaman,

The flexing I got was not from the Gooseneck portion but from the trailer deck. It was flexing up and down also at the same time twisting the entire length. When I would hit a transition it would shock the trailer and truck suspension and transfer that to the truck hitch and feel like the hitch was going to break or I was damaging the trailer.

Not being an engineer by trade, my thoughts on the shock load is the GN hitch ball being abruptly stopped or forced in another direction opposite the motion twisting of the trailer. That load needs to be transferred somewhere and the only place is the hitch/coupler. At that time, I had a 2004 2500HD extended cab also.

As far as the trailer goes, I know many manufactures offer an upgrade of a torque tube set up that counteracts the twisting motion on trailers that are long. I also think that if you pulled another trailer with your setup it would more than likely handle the same.

 

[wushaw]

Your having frame twisting/tourquing problems translating up to the truck.
I have a GN dump trailer that does the same thing but it ain't that bad with the truck I use to tow it with but it can be rather harsh with a one ton.

I know it's the frame since when empty it does not do it till I load it...your trailer may be heavy enough to do it empty.

 

[montanaman]

I was picking up a fifth wheel hitch from a dealer that I buy from this AM and asked him if he thought there was a chance it could be the equalizers or spring bolts and we both sort of thought that by now, something would have loosened up or broken!!

No, I haven't had a chance to look at them yet. Too busy with projects that pay to get to my own.

I was also thinking that if there are SO many people with this trailer NOT having any problems towing them, maybe I shouldn't worry so much about trying to sell it?

I have a friend who would likely buy it right now and I could always insist that he give it a test pull first.

Looked at a Top Brand today and I really liked the looks of it. Heavy I-beam frame, high gooseneck,5' beaver tail,and even Good Year tires! I can get a really good price on it too.

Ken

 

[sandman2234]

Before you sell it, load a single tractor on it, a little further forward of where you would normally tie it down and go for a ride. Then move the tractor one inch backwards, go again, and keep doing this until you find the sweetest ride you can get out of it. There is a point at which the tongue will get light, so be careful with that.
I am reasonably sure you will find one point that rides a lot better than most of the rest. Since they build trailers pretty much the same way for the same model, and nobody else is having trouble with them, maybe they got lucky with the loading.
What can it hurt to waste a few gallons of fuel and half a day?
What you are discribing is hard to get out of a trailer that is loaded with the belly full (center loaded). Even tractor trailers have some problem with it.
David from jax