Need Advice On Wind power

[excelagator]

I have been seriously looking into generating power from wind. The main reason is our power goes out due to storms. The reliability of our power company is not great. When our power goes out we do have wind! We live in a good/decent area to generate power. I am told one of the best areas in the state. I decided on wind verses solar due to cloudy days, snow, and bang for the buck DIY 12 volt wind generator. Yes, there is more service involved with wind. I was looking to start rather small with a homebuilt 12 volt system to at least power some 12 volt landscape lights and run 12 volt power into the house for a 400 watt inverter. Side benefit would be alternating stored batteries keep them fresh when Spring comes. Granted this would probably not power our propane furnace, but a step forward though to getting my feet wet! So for the short term for heat is I am looking into fixing a old RV 6000 watt onan generator for the furnace and well.

This is the plans I am looking at for starters
Purchase_Plans

I have a 60 foot tv antenna I dropped this summer that could modified and used. So is that cost is covered. Long term....eventually I would like to build one big enough to power us "partially", and maybe break even with cost in 15 years.

Any good or bad input is much appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[charlz]

I've seen 400w wind generators at Costco in the spring... for about $400 and you provide the tower. Always seemed like too much hassle for backup power when you can walk over another row and get a 4kw gas generator for the same price.

 

[excelagator]

Probably the same one here. The price must have gone up.

Sam's Club - 400W Wind Generator

 

[absrio]

I would like to get a Skystream 3.7 but at about $15,000 installed I cant justify it yet. I woud save about $10-$25 a month on electric but over 20 years I am still about $4000 shy of payback. That is if 1kwh stayed at $.10.

 

[theonlybull]

Welcome to OTHERPOWER.COM

a good resourse for homebuilt windpower.

also any books or info from Hugh Piggott

 

[EddieWalker]

Wind power is one of those things that the more you learn about it, the less appealing it is. The upfront cost is considerable, but then after you have it in place, what do you do with the power? Storing it in batteries is very expensive. Relying on it to supply power is always dependent on the wind and how fast the wind is blowing. Most of them have a minimum and maximum wind speed that they can work in. Too fast is very bad for them.

On commercial windmils, they require government grants to build them. Nobody is buying them on their own since they cost so much money. Then maintaining them can be extremly expensive. On a very large windfarm in the SF Bay area, the price to keep them working far exceeded the amount of electricity that they generated.

Eddie

 

[CurlyDave]

The only thing I can add to what Eddie says is that new studies have shown that the weather conditions which produce the greatest demand for electricity, very hot days with high demand for air conditioning, tend to be calm with little wind.

 

[Foothill Rancher]

Another thing Eddie didn't mention and its a big gripe to the mills in SF is that people are always after them for the birds, birds seem to fly into them. PUFF

 

[kennyd]

You should not think of windpower as "backup" power...unless you install massive battery banks and inverters. Most windmills in my area are about $20,000 installed-they are hooked up with special electric meters that will allow the unused generated power to go back into the grid causing the meter to spin backwards so you build credit when your usage is very low. But as mentioned, the return on your money can take 20 years or longer!

I seriously doubt that the unit listed will run a 400w inverter also-They can draw 20 amps on the DC side to get 400w on the AC side.

 

[czechsonofagun]

The biggest problem of wind power is similar to hydropower. They are not flexible enough for the need of the grid. Now hydropower solves it in some case with transforming the energy from kinetical to potential - i.e. pumping water up the hill for the peak demand hours.

Sooo - maybe windmill with a generator and a big water tower to pump the water up when there is a wind and let it go down when you need power???

And I think I posted this one already:

Construction of a 10' diameter wind turbine

 

[EddieWalker]

Another thing Eddie didn't mention and its a big gripe to the mills in SF is that people are always after them for the birds, birds seem to fly into them. PUFF

Sounds like you are familiar with the windmill farm on the Altomont Pass that I'm refering to. There are allot of dead birds from those windmills, which made it fun for spotting coyotes while driving past there. Some days, I've seen a dozen or more coyotes out in the fields.

Another complaint that the environmental groups sued the windmill owners for was that the vibrations of the windmills had a negative affect on the reproduction of ground sqirrels. It seems that they were bothered by this and stoped doing what they do to have babbies.

My buddy owns a crane company in Oakland, he's been on Mythbusters a bunch of times too, but he was rebuilding the hydraulics on the lift buckets that they used to greese and repair the windmills. It was big money for him, but company and company went out of business trying to make any money off of the windmills. Maintenance was just too expensive with very little electricity generated. If you drive through there today, you will see some spinning, some locked into position and some that have fallen down or lost there blades. It's a mess.

When you hear about energy from windmills, remember that it's a sales pitch for tax dollars that goes to those who build, sell and install them. After that, they tend to be too expensive to maintain without any return because the wind isn't consistant, or at the proper speed. Take goverment subsidery our of the equation and nobody will be talking about wind energy. Same thing as ethonal. It doesn't make any sense.

Eddie

 

[woodlandfarms]

I would strongly suggest the use of my wife. You would no longer need a tower, and she eats very little. Just place her and your turbine far from the house as her constant yammering will surely drive you crazy...

 

[therebarely]

I have one of those too (windy woman). Send her out with a gun, and she can shoot the birds before they hit the windmill. Then she can shoot the coyotes as they come to have lunch on the dead birds, and have her skin them and make herself a nice winter coat. Now that is getting back to nature in a very GREEN way.

 

[WayneB]

Back in the mid 70's I was involved with doing many wind surveys and in most cases we found that there just wasn't enough constant wind to make home wind generation practical.

At that time most of the small wind generators (under 6 KW) produced maximum power at around 15 mph winds and very little power if the wind was under 10 mph.

Plus anything over the 15 mph wind speeds the generators had to be either turned slight out of the wind or mechanical brakes were used to slow down the generators.

The big commercial generators are mainly induction type generators and actually increase the torque on the generators as the wind power increases, but the turbine blades seem to always be turning at the same slow speed. The ones I have seen are all 45 KW units and are free standing towers. Wind blade span is around 80 feet I believe

As for the TV antenna you have, I am not sure of its structure but keep in mind that at sixty feet the windmill will be producing some pretty good forces upon the antenna tower. Multiple guide wiring will be required plus the base of the tower has to be secured properly. Getting the windmill up onto the top of the tower is also a bit of heavy work. We never had a windmill fail during calm days, always seem to be when the winds were blowing the hardest and most of the time it was either raining or snowing. You will find that you will also have to be climbing the tower often to do general service so be prepared. (any chance you could consider hydro power, at least the guts of the system are on the ground)

But, these are the first steps, now you will have to also consider how you are going to use the energy. Back when I was working in the wind industry most of the small home type mills were best utilized to heat water. Pretty direct use of any power that is generated. We did have a few battery bank systems and they worked fine for use with 12/24/48 volt power distribution, but required all lights and usage items to be Direct Current items. Today you can purchase a phase converter that will take 120 vdc generated power and convert it to 120 vac 60 hz power. These units are expensive, but if commercially purchased you might even be able to connect it so you can generate power that the National Grid will pay you for (?).

I would think the first thing you would want to do is run a wind study just to see what actual wind power you have. You can purchase a wind anemometer and chart recording system so you can see just what the average winds are. The charting can be done electronically and displayed on a computer screen or they have paper chart recorders that run continuously and provide a full month of chart recordings.

Just my two cents.

Wayne

 

[stimpee]

I think there is a lot of disinformation on wind power here, at least at the commercial scale, relative to new technology. I used to work in the industry, just on the west side of the altamont pass.

Those "turbines" are mostly over 20 years old. Only a few are even around 10 years old. Many of the companies that built them are out of business.

However times, energy costs, and technology have changed massively since then. New turbines can produce energy, for a decade or 2, at a cost that is getting competitive with commercially produced electricity without subsidies.

While I do not think windpower is the solution to our energy woes, I do think it is an important PIECE of that overall solution. When done properly, and in the right location, it is an excellent way to generate electricity with minimal environmental impact.

I recently purchased a property/home in a location on the top of a hill, at one of the top 5 or so highest points in my county. We get amazing, and steady winds up here, especially in the winter. I have considered doing a year long wind survey to see what the payoff might be for a small wind turbine installation. Even in my conditions, I doubt that I will see a payoff in a reasonable amount of time. If I could break even, at today's electricity prices, in 10-15, I would probably do it.

One error many people make is that to make them really work properly, you have to get them up REALLY REALLY high.

 

[WayneB]

I do agree you that some of the information provided may be disinformation regarding wind energy. I was only pointing out when I wrote earlier that homeowner wind energy is expensive and requires a bunch of prior planning to make sure you are prepared for the cost and the work associated with owning and operating a wind energy source.

Now on the commercial side of the wind energy controversy and believe me it is just that, one has to understand just what is happening in the rural north country and plains of our country. Knowing first hand what is taking place in rural upstate New York with wind energy I can certainly comment that not everyone is happy with the wind energy companies.

The immediate benefits have been to the local farmers, many of them aging and not able to produce enough income to hold onto the home farmlands, are being provided signing bonus money to permit the installation of wind turbines on their property. These are large checks that make the farm tax payments, buy new trucks and tractors plus put some money into their pockets.

Also small towns are getting large payments. The school board of Chateaugay, NY received a payment of over $330,000 this year alone and is using the money to lower taxes and upgrade the schools computer systems. I should mention here that this money was given to the town in lieu of taxes. Not sure just what that means, but it sounds as if they are willing to pay out money and not have to be taxed on the actual value of the wind turbines. Keep in mind they are planning on an installation of over 300 turbines in the area.

Future benefits to the local farmers will be the cash given to them depending upon how much energy is produced by the wind farm. Numbers being thrown around are anywhere from $4,000 to $10,000 per Turbine.

Physically the wind turbine towers are hard to miss, most are nearly 400 feet tall! Placement has been along the boarder lines of large hay fields (stone wall areas) and they have actually taken the stone walls and crushed all of the rocks to make access roads. It is a major operation and interesting to watch.

The company operating the installation has been extremely good about managing the roadways and any damage has been instantly repaired even if it required repaving the roadway.

There is just a whole bunch of money being spent. For communities as small as these northern towns are it is a bit scary not known the entire picture of things to come.

I relate it to the building of the seaway project and hydropower systems in the area and the powers to be telling everyone that "heck when we are done electric power will be so cheap your meters might run backwards"!

All the local farmers put us kids to work while they worked 12 to 14 hours a day building the Saint Lawrence Seaway. Well the meters never ran backwards, once built all the farmers went back to milking cows and cutting hay, and very little if any of that power ever comes to the local house holds instead it goes to New York City.

Sorry so long, but every time I hear " I'm from the Government and I am here to help you" well I am ready to start running away.

wayne

 

[woodlandfarms]

There is a town that has been in the news that went wind. What I was surprised by is that they still had to pay for electricity, although it was held at a particular price point, it did not seem like that great of a deal... I figured the least the town would do is negotiate for free juice and not price fixed juice...

 

[EddieWalker]

...There is just a whole bunch of money being spent...

I think this is the key to wind energy and those promoting it. As long as there is allot of government money available, it's being promoted as soemthing great. Remove the government money from the equation, and it's a big money pit.

Eddie

 

[Bill Barrett]

The wind farms that are going up around me are BP and a Canadian firm. They are in it for the money, I haven't heard if tax money is going to foreign companies. They put up a farm last winter, 200 + windmils, crap weather. They can slam them up fast, no lost money in construction.

 

[Bill Barrett]