Need Advice on Ag-tractor Backhoe-based Stump Removal

[MarkV]

I pretty much do it like everyone else has mentioned. You just have to keep at it. One word of caution that I don’t think has been mentioned though. When digging a tight hole around a stump you will find yourself with the bucket wedged down between the stump and the side of the hole at some point. It is natural to use the bucket curl to try and pop the stump loose in this position. With smaller backhoes I have seen this maneuver bend the rod on the bucket hydraulic cylinder so be careful.

MarkV

 

[Dougster]

I've dug more than one that by the time I had it loose I had to chain to the stump and pull it over to the edge of the hole to get it out.

Ha!!! I had to laugh out loud picturing this! As two of my largest trees are fairly close together, I can now envision having to dig one very large hole around both!

The part about being able to tell ahead of time how big a job one will be; it's guesstiment work. You kinda get to where you can know something by what species, how big, other nearby stumps, soil, etc., but I still always start too close in.

It's probably just human nature to be optimistic and to try to limit lawn damage as much as possible. I plead guilty to that. It will matter less as I go farther back into the totally undeveloped area. Neighbors be d#%$ed, I will make as much noise and mess as I need to back there!

Dougster

 

[jeffinsgf]

Well, this dead horse has been whipped quite a bit, but I haven't had my chance yet.

The only thing I can add to the "keep at it" advise is that on certain larger stumps, you may find it helpful to dig yourself one or two access lanes into the bottom of the excavation. I took out a 24" sycamore where that would have been a good idea. I kept trying to avoid the issue, but I was working on top of spoils piles and reaching far enough with the hoe that I lost some of my mechanical advantage. Even if it means a larger repair, if you have to go over 4 feet deep, it might be a good idea to get your machine down lower as your dig goes deeper. Oh, and the advice about keeping your spoils as far from your work as possible -- I'll second that one, too.

One more. If any of the trees are in the 6-8 inch range, and they're not down yet, I highly recommend not cutting them. I took our several large cedars by limbing them up as high as I could, digging out around the base like has been discussed here, and then pushing them over. I had an equal number that I had already cut, and the digs had to go much, much deeper.

Okay, really, last comment. Re: burying the stump. Depending on species, you may be mistaken that you won't be around when the sink hole develops. I buried the cedar stumps, but I would not bury a pine, fir, oak, walnut, sycamore, or gum stump in an area where I wanted a yard. The sink hole could develop in just a couple years, depending on the drainage characteristics of the soil.

 

[Haoleguy]

Dougster - Patience, patience, patience! You might have to readjust your expectations on speed....I have to all the time. Eddie's got it right on technique. It will be a mess to start but when finished fill in the hole and compact slightly. I had recently done two different 2 headed maple root balls of approximately the same size. Completion rates were 1hr with 12K lb excavator and 4hr with my JD5325-BH49 combo. For me the maples have been the most difficult. We await your results.....Cheers

 

[Dougster]

Well, this dead horse has been whipped quite a bit, but I haven't had my chance yet.

The only thing I can add to the "keep at it" advise is that on certain larger stumps, you may find it helpful to dig yourself one or two access lanes into the bottom of the excavation. I took out a 24" sycamore where that would have been a good idea. I kept trying to avoid the issue, but I was working on top of spoils piles and reaching far enough with the hoe that I lost some of my mechanical advantage. Even if it means a larger repair, if you have to go over 4 feet deep, it might be a good idea to get your machine down lower as your dig goes deeper. Oh, and the advice about keeping your spoils as far from your work as possible -- I'll second that one, too.

One more. If any of the trees are in the 6-8 inch range, and they're not down yet, I highly recommend not cutting them. I took our several large cedars by limbing them up as high as I could, digging out around the base like has been discussed here, and then pushing them over. I had an equal number that I had already cut, and the digs had to go much, much deeper.

Okay, really, last comment. Re: burying the stump. Depending on species, you may be mistaken that you won't be around when the sink hole develops. I buried the cedar stumps, but I would not bury a pine, fir, oak, walnut, sycamore, or gum stump in an area where I wanted a yard. The sink hole could develop in just a couple years, depending on the drainage characteristics of the soil.

Yeah, the horse has been whipped good! But I need some of these tips drilled deep... Deep... DEEP into my aging brain! Believe me when I say that I truly appreciate this entire conversation!

None of my stumps are near 24" in diameter (Thank Gawd!) except for maybe some of those multiple (triple) trunk oak trees. Haven't done one of those yet. Most of them big triple deals will be staying anyway... at least for now... but let me say this:

I hear you all talking about gigantic holes with remote spoils piles and access roads down into the holes and chains and ladders and track hoes, etc... and I can only shutter! That "go big" approach is fine for way out back, but I gotta tell you that you are scaring the heck out of me in terms of the mess my front and side yards are going to be in by the time Thanksgiving rolls around! The significant other is not going to be a very happy camper unless I make some reasonable effort to contain... not just restore... the "collateral damage."

How's about I re-pose my question in this way if anyone wishes to tackle it: In sensitive, landscaped areas of a nice residential neighborhood front yard... are there any techniques that I can use that will tend to limit collateral damage but still get the stump out in some reasonable time? Or is that technique what they call "stump grinding"?

I truly do get the message that bigger is better... honest I do... but you must have run into this issue once or twice before with a neighbor or your grandmother... so what approach have you folks taken in instances where bigger was not necessarily better?

Dougster

 

[Raddad]

After reading all these posts I'm glad I rented a stump grinder.

 

[Dougster]

Dougster - Patience, patience, patience! You might have to readjust your expectations on speed....I have to all the time. Eddie's got it right on technique. It will be a mess to start but when finished fill in the hole and compact slightly. I had recently done two different 2 headed maple root balls of approximately the same size. Completion rates were 1hr with 12K lb excavator and 4hr with my JD5325-BH49 combo. For me the maples have been the most difficult. We await your results.....Cheers

That's an interesting comparison... 1 hour vs. 4 hours (apparently a midi-excavator (?) vs. a darn nice (and powerful) JD aggie-based TLB. This is exactly what I don't like to hear... ...but better to know the time it will take than to underestimate the job and still be working on it after the sun goes down!

Dougster

 

[mike69440]

I have not tackled a big stmp lately with my L-39. There is a reason for that. I have learrned not to beat on the machine and waste my time when my seat time is more valueable doing HD landscaping vs. paying a larger machine to tear up the place doing the work.

However this weekend I was mucking out part of the swamp to start the road project over the wetland. (Yes, I have the darn permits) This was to allow better access for the escavator and the dump trucks when the heavy work starts.

I started working a large stump, just to see if I could get it out, but being in a swamp, I only could get at it from one side. I ended up spending about 25 minutes to loosen it, but could not rip it out as I could not get to the roots on the other side. I left it for the escavator.

The lesson is with a smaller hoe, you have to get digging deep all around it to remove it.

Also do not try to pull a stump too large for the machine to pull out of the hole and carry or drag, in my case that would be +3,000 lbs, which is a rather large root ball.

For comparision in the wet soil I was able to rip 6 to 8" stumps out by just scaring the soil around the stump and peeling out the stump just like an escavator would with a large stump.

 

[jeffinsgf]

That's an interesting comparison... 1 hour vs. 4 hours (apparently a midi-excavator (?) vs. a darn nice (and powerful) JD aggie-based TLB. This is exactly what I don't like to hear... ...but better to know the time it will take than to underestimate the job and still be working on it after the sun goes down!

Dougster

Aw, Doug --- our holes weren't THAT big. We just want to make them sound bigger than they were! Sorta like tractor based fish stories. I might even need to get a tape out to see if that sycamore really was 24".

Remote spoils pile in my book is as far away as the arm can reach. I'm not going to move the machine for every bucket. I might shove it around with the loader a little, but only when necessary.

Pick the smallest victim, get out there and have at it. You'll have your technique for minimal impact down by the third or fourth one.

 

[Dougster]

Aw, Doug --- our holes weren't THAT big. We just want to make them sound bigger than they were! Sorta like tractor based fish stories. I might even need to get a tape out to see if that sycamore really was 24". Remote spoils pile in my book is as far away as the arm can reach. I'm not going to move the machine for every bucket. I might shove it around with the loader a little, but only when necessary. Pick the smallest victim, get out there and have at it. You'll have your technique for minimal impact down by the third or fourth one.

I understand what you're saying Jeff... and I'm kinda sorta kidding you guys back a bit! Around all the highly useful hints and experience you guys have thrown out (and I appreciate every one of them), the theme of "bigger is better" started getting a little out of hand! I do get the point... very clearly... but it does me no good to dig the grand canyon just so I don't have to jump down off the tractor and use the chainsaw for a few minutes (as an example) if you get my drift. Hence my desire to turn away from the themes of overall ease, efficiency, predictability, etc... and maybe talk a little bit about what a doctor might call "minimally invasive" stump surgery!

Related to that, I'd like to ask another question. Reading between the lines of some of the more recent posts, I'm getting the impression that many folks feel there is a practical/sensible limit to what size stump I can expect to pull safely & efficiently... i.e., without overworking or damaging my machine... beyond which I should maybe consider postponing removal for now and renting a construction backhoe for a few days next year (after mud season ends) to address that work. And so I ask... in terms of stump size, at what point might I be asking too much of my Bradco 509 backhoe?

Dougster

 

[Defective]

And so I ask... in terms of stump size, at what point might I be asking too much of my Bradco 509 backhoe?

Having just done a quick search for specs on your hoe, (here's what I found) I'd say you can go a long way before you start making the machine actually work.

One good rule of thumb I've found useful is that you can knock any stump loose if you can reach it's bottom. Your hoe has a straight wall depth of 7'3". Any stump with a main root ball that goes down less than 7' is fair game.

As an example, those stumps I pulled with my little 8n where a fairly easy job with a SWD of only 5'8".

Deciduous trees will always be easier than an equivalent evergreen as the evergreens commonly have tap roots. Tap roots take cutting as you'll never dig them all the way out. Cutting a tap root is never safe. So, leave big Pine stumps & such for the heavier machines that can snap them off. (Tho I HAVE used a custom bucket to cut a few. If you can get your hands on a 6" wide bucket with a hard & sharp cutting edge you'll be amazed at how much damage you can do to a stump...)

Every species has its characteristic root pattern. Some are downright easy while others will wear you out. None will hurt your machine if you pay attention while working.

I don't necessarily agree with going nuts on the size of the hole. Start close to the stump & make it bigger as needed. I think Eddie said something similar somewhere in this thread. Just resist the urge to try & pry the stump loose & you'll do fine.

If you break loose a stump the machine can't lift out of the hole, wrap chains around it & work it out slowly. You may need to dig a ramp.

OK...'nuff rambling for now...

 

[Dougster]

Having just done a quick search for specs on your hoe, (here's what I found) I'd say you can go a long way before you start making the machine actually work. One good rule of thumb I've found useful is that you can knock any stump loose if you can reach it's bottom. Your hoe has a straight wall depth of 7'3". Any stump with a main root ball that goes down less than 7' is fair game. As an example, those stumps I pulled with my little 8n where a fairly easy job with a SWD of only 5'8". Deciduous trees will always be easier than an equivalent evergreen as the evergreens commonly have tap roots. Tap roots take cutting as you'll never dig them all the way out. Cutting a tap root is never safe. So, leave big Pine stumps & such for the heavier machines that can snap them off. (Tho I HAVE used a custom bucket to cut a few. If you can get your hands on a 6" wide bucket with a hard & sharp cutting edge you'll be amazed at how much damage you can do to a stump...) Every species has its characteristic root pattern. Some are downright easy while others will wear you out. None will hurt your machine if you pay attention while working. I don't necessarily agree with going nuts on the size of the hole. Start close to the stump & make it bigger as needed. I think Eddie said something similar somewhere in this thread. Just resist the urge to try & pry the stump loose & you'll do fine. If you break loose a stump the machine can't lift out of the hole, wrap chains around it & work it out slowly. You may need to dig a ramp. OK...'nuff rambling for now...

Thanks Def! Sounds like I am going to be fine for now with the (90+ percent) 12-18" oak trees I've got to take out on my property. And you are making me very glad that there is not a single pine in the mix larger than maybe 6-8 inches tops. I can push them over easy! Those multi-trunk oaks could be tough, but like I said... they are staying put for now (unless one or more gets blown down this winter!).

As you probably saw in the Bradco brochure, the smallest bucket I can get is 12"... although I did notice for the first time that you can order them without teeth if that makes any sense. Not sure how well a 12" would "cut"... but those teeth on mine are kinda rounded compared with others I have seen. I have no idea if there are any third-party buckets available for the 509 that might be smaller, sharper or stronger.

I am not unhappy with my 18" bucket... but it would be nice if I had a 12" for stumps and maybe a 24" or larger for the re-grading work. Still, the 18" is a good compromise and the smallest one made to work with Bradco's fixed thumb (which I intend to buy as soon as I can come up with a *spare* $850.00).

Dougster

 

[dubba]

at what point might I be asking too much of my Bradco 509 backhoe?

While I have never run a bradco hoe, the specs listed on that link up a few posts are almost identical to my jd 110 hoe. I have yet to run across a stump thats too big for that size hoe, but I haven't any 3-4ft diameter trees on my property. mostly 12-24" oak & pine. I have had a couple of double pine stumps that were a real pain (45min) because of their proximity to each other, size (18 & 24"), and the ledge that they grew into but nothing I couldn't remove. I use a 24" bucket.

 

[Dougster]

While I have never run a bradco hoe, the specs listed on that link up a few posts are almost identical to my jd 110 hoe. I have yet to run across a stump thats too big for that size hoe, but I haven't any 3-4 ft diameter trees on my property. mostly 12-24" oak & pine. I have had a couple of double pine stumps that were a real pain (45 min) because of their proximity to each other, size (18 & 24"), and the ledge that they grew into but nothing I couldn't remove. I use a 24" bucket.

Thanks for the info Dubba! I find this very interesting because my first choice in a slightly used TLB *was* a Deere 110. It's a fact that I would own one today had the timing of my truck purchase (and subsequent surprise lay-off notice 5 days later) happened less than two weeks earlier. Funny the games life plays on you!

That being said, I know the Deere 110 well and my Mahindra 4110/509... which I absolutely love to pieces... is no Deere 110. The only notable advantage I've got with the Mahindra is that it can fit in my garage with the ROPS lowered, helping me comply with my town's strict residential zoning bylaws.

Perhaps with a PTO hydraulic pump the 509 would start to come close, but "as delivered" the 110 has more power, more weight, almost double the BH hydraulic flow, far more dipper/crowd digging power and a generally better overall design (i.e., operator position, curved boom, etc... IMHO) for digging out stumps than the 4110/509.

Still, your report is reassuring. Having bought bigger than I probably should have just so I could attack these stumps and not have to rent or contract out, at times I've questioned that decision when a smaller tractor might have made more sense for my other uses and saved a few bucks.

Dougster

 

[Defective]

Dougster,

The only real advantage to the smaller bucket size is manuverability. Your wider bucket will cut, but you'll want to sharpen up the teeth. Check around & see if you can come up with a used bucket then weld (or have someone weld for you) a section of grader blade on the lip. Grind a medium-sharp edge on the blade & make chips fly. Think of it as whittling with an attitude.

 

[Dougster]

Dougster, The only real advantage to the smaller bucket size is manuverability. Your wider bucket will cut, but you'll want to sharpen up the teeth. Check around & see if you can come up with a used bucket then weld (or have someone weld for you) a section of grader blade on the lip. Grind a medium-sharp edge on the blade & make chips fly. Think of it as whittling with an attitude.

Hi Def - The only used Bradco 500/600 series buckets I've found out there are 16" and 18"... the same as I've got (or close). Not a single 12" anywhere out there unless ordered new.

I'd wondered about sharpening the bucket teeth, but I wasn't sure it would help much and didn't want to risk weakening them. Recently, I found a good cheap source of exact replacement teeth on-line... so maybe I'll buy and experiment on them! Interestingly, the new replacement teeth appear no more or less "sharp" or rounded than the teeth currently installed... so I know they've not worn down much. The replacement teeth are not like some I've seen on-line that appear to have been ground sharp as an axe head.

Dougster

 

[Defective]

Dougster,

Bucket teeth aren't really supposed to be sharp. It's the shape that makes them work. On the other hand, sharp teeth (maybe a 30 degree angle) should do a good job hacking their way through roots. One thing to watch out for is catching roots between the teeth. You'll need a pretty sturdy toothpick. I'd go with the idea of sharp teeth but don't try to force it if you catch a root between them. Keep a good hatchet on hand to get them loose instead.

If you have fabrication capabilities, I'd buy one of the used buckets & think about narrowing it & attaching a sharp edge like I mentioned earlier. Then you'll have a stump digging bucket.

 

[dubba]

Dougster, I was thinking of you today when I was presented with this 6 stump cluster.


Stump 1,2,3 were pine. chainsaw for reference has a 20" bar..




Stump 4,5 were oak, #4 was cut 2 yrs ago, #5 was still growing, started by attacking 4 & 5




4 gives up in 2 pieces, then I pushed over 5




Then I got after 2 & 3. Turns out 1,2,3 were solidly connected



In total it took 1.75hrs to remove this 6 stump cluster. I never showed #6 because it was only 8" & rotted. popped it out with the grapple when I was trenching on the wall side of 4 & 5. I would like to not have dropped the tree on the wall, but what you can't see is the overhead power lines just in front of the tractor. i needed to go away from them with #5.

 

[Dougster]

Dougster, I was thinking of you today when I was presented with this 6 stump cluster. Stump 1,2,3 were pine. Chainsaw for reference has a 20" bar. Stump 4,5 were oak, #4 was cut 2 yrs ago, #5 was still growing, started by attacking 4 & 5. 4 gives up in 2 pieces, then I pushed over 5. Then I got after 2 & 3. Turns out 1,2,3 were solidly connected. In total it took 1.75hrs to remove this 6 stump cluster. I never showed #6 because it was only 8" & rotted. Popped it out with the grapple when I was trenching on the wall side of 4 & 5. I would like to not have dropped the tree on the wall, but what you can't see is the overhead power lines just in front of the tractor. I needed to go away from them with #5.

Holy Goodness Dubba! You are "Da Man"!!!

'Course, I see you cheated by using your thumb! No fair Brother Dubba!!!

1.75 Hours??? Seriously??? It would have taken me that long just to plan my attack! And then half an hour more to finish my coffee before starting!!!

Like I said before, you can compare specs all day long, but that Deere 110 is one heckuva nice machine. Sure wish I had bought my truck and been laid-off two weeks earlier! I know experience matters... and almost anyone here currently beats me in that category hands down... but you've also got one very nice stump-pulling machine there!

Thanks for posting the pix and telling the story. I've got to get a digital camera of my own someday soon. Someday, I want to be able to show you all that I've learned something under your valuable guidance!

Dougster