Moving water from spring box uphill without electricity

[chris the wrench]

Backstory: We've got a spring box on our property that is fed by an underground spring. We have legal access and usage of this water. There currently is an underground cement/cinderblock box, the top of the box is at grade level and has a 18"x18" access hatch, and there is a pvc pipe overflow. The box is approximately 6 feet x 3 feet by 6 feet deep. My math tells me that's about 800 gallons. The water currently isn't being used, so it just runs out of the overflow pipe at a rate of about 1.5 gallons per minute. I can not visibly see the input source into the box.

I want to double or maybe even triple our veggie and fruit garden/orchard, and our current watering system(home well with a long run from the well) for the garden can't support it. I could dig a new supply line from the well, but that would be a lot of work, but is an option. Id like to place a 500-1000 gallon plastic water tank(s) uphill of my garden/orchard and then gravity feed my garden from that storage tank.

Im thinking I'd like to fill that storage tank with water from that spring, and supplement with my home well when/if needed. That tank would require a lift of an about 25-30 feet from bottom of spring box to the top of the tank and aprox. 150' of distance. No electricity is available at spring. The spring is in a very tight and steep little gulch, not much flat space. I briefly considered IBC totes below the spring(gravity fed) and using the tractor to move them above garden, but easy access is too tight.

Options I've come up with.
1) Generator with electric water sump pump submerged into spring box and hose fed up to storage tanks. Run generator till I drain the spring tank or fill the storage tank. -Cheapest since I have all those parts(minus storage tanks). Maybe too much lift for sump pump, and hassle of manually running generator when ever storage tank(s) need refill.
2) Solar water pump. Haven't researched
3)Wind powered. Old school wind mill? Haven't researched, but we get consistent wind from one direction
4)Self powered ram pump. Not the most water efficient, but looks like it's self sufficient once it's set up and will run 24 hours a day dropping water into the tank. Maybe dropping a .25-.3 gallons a minute into my storage tank from that 1.5 gallons per minute that is coming out of the overflow pipe. Anyone here personally run one? Ive watched the YouTube, but prefer real peoples results/suggestions.


Ideas/thoughts?

Thanks

 

[CalG]

PTO powered pump!

Pump with tractor power when needed.

800 gallons at 20 gallons per minute won't take long/

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/hypro-6-roller-cast-iron-sprayer-pump-with-torque-arm-2112023?store=1543&cid=Google-Shopping&utm_medium=Google&utm_source=Shopping&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpLabsP-iiAMVp2lHAR0cwyQ3EAQYAiABEgIdLfD_BwE

For $1000 you can have a nicer solution.

 

[ponytug]

Backstory: We've got a spring box on our property that is fed by an underground spring. We have legal access and usage of this water. There currently is an underground cement/cinderblock box, the top of the box is at grade level and has a 18"x18" access hatch, and there is a pvc pipe overflow. The box is approximately 6 feet x 3 feet by 6 feet deep. My math tells me that's about 800 gallons. The water currently isn't being used, so it just runs out of the overflow pipe at a rate of about 1.5 gallons per minute. I can not visibly see the input source into the box.

I want to double or maybe even triple our veggie and fruit garden/orchard, and our current watering system(home well with a long run from the well) for the garden can't support it. I could dig a new supply line from the well, but that would be a lot of work, but is an option. Id like to place a 500-1000 gallon plastic water tank(s) uphill of my garden/orchard and then gravity feed my garden from that storage tank.

Im thinking I'd like to fill that storage tank with water from that spring, and supplement with my home well when/if needed. That tank would require a lift of an about 25-30 feet from bottom of spring box to the top of the tank and aprox. 150' of distance. No electricity is available at spring. The spring is in a very tight and steep little gulch, not much flat space. I briefly considered IBC totes below the spring(gravity fed) and using the tractor to move them above garden, but easy access is too tight.

Options I've come up with.
1) Generator with electric water sump pump submerged into spring box and hose fed up to storage tanks. Run generator till I drain the spring tank or fill the storage tank. -Cheapest since I have all those parts(minus storage tanks). Maybe too much lift for sump pump, and hassle of manually running generator when ever storage tank(s) need refill.
2) Solar water pump. Haven't researched
3)Wind powered. Old school wind mill? Haven't researched, but we get consistent wind from one direction
4)Self powered ram pump. Not the most water efficient, but looks like it's self sufficient once it's set up and will run 24 hours a day dropping water into the tank. Maybe dropping a .25-.3 gallons a minute into my storage tank from that 1.5 gallons per minute that is coming out of the overflow pipe. Anyone here personally run one? Ive watched the YouTube, but prefer real peoples results/suggestions.


Ideas/thoughts?

Thanks

Congratulations on a nice spring!

I guess my first question is how much of the 1.5gpm do you plan on using in the garden?

A sump pump is designed for a 2-10' lift; so, not what you really need.

A solar powered pump with the right lift/flow would work, and I would add a battery to try and compensate for bad weather/overnight.

A wind powered pump would work great, if you can find one. Last time I looked they were getting harder and harder to find. Some designs function with the lift rod moving laterally, I.e. down from a nice windy ridge to a pump in a spring box.

Our family had a hydraulic ram. It worked well. However, they aren't exactly efficient and waste a fair bit of water. Plus, they work best when you can get the water to a high speed before the water hits the ram check valve, and that means a nice long straight pipe with a good drop. Do you have that?

150-300' is not that far to run wiring for a small electrical pump. We did that for many years to water our garden, rolling it out and rolling it back up again every weekend (to keep rodents from chewing on the above ground wire).

All the best,

Peter

 

[Mendonsy]

I have four of the 240 gallon tanks set up the same way that you are describe. I bought a 2" gas powered semi-trash pump from TSC to fill them from a stream in my back yard. It takes about 7 minutes for that pump to fill each tank, but it takes more time to string out the 2" hoses and prime the pump which sits about 3' above the stream. All added up its about a 3 hour job to fill them. Fortunately I only have to fill them about twice most years. This year we have had enough rain that I only had to fill them once.

 

[zzvyb6]

I have 8 windmills of all sizes & brands up and around my property. One compresses air for a pond aerator using a truck air suspension chamber connected to the pump rod with a criss-cross (pump rod pulls, chamber is compressed). A standard old, vintage, or brand new Aeromotor mill will get you plenty of water in any 24 hr cycle to the extent that you might want to use a float mechanism to shut it off. I prefer the Aeromotors (still buy new from Texas plant, and the old-school Flint & Walling mills. They had real bearings, an oil pump good brake design, and the offset tail to pull the fan out of the wind when the wind speed gets too high.

Used ones around here go for $1500 - $2500 including the tower. I have a JLG boom lift to make this simple as possible. Rent one locally for a couple of hours.

 

[the old grind]

Due to distance and vertical head I'd go with option number one.

I'd use a shallow well or a sprinkler pump and 3/4" lines going uphill, say house the pump by the source and visit as needed with a gen to top up the tote.

The more often I start up the gen the easier it is. Just my thought and my way to KISS this prospect.

 

[chris the wrench]

PTO powered pump!

That wasn’t on my list but I think that maybe the best option for now.

I guess my first question is how much of the 1.5gpm do you plan on using in the garden?

Good question. Ive been trying to guestimate that for weeks. At a previous property that was warmer and longer season we used almost 3000 gallons a season. This property isnt as warm(significantly later frost) but more direct sun and wind. So im thinking that 3k a season is more than we will need.

I have four of the 240 gallon tanks set up the same way that you are describe

Are you running ibc totes? Do you tarp/paint them to keep alage growth down?

 

[RjCorazza]

Were I doing this I think a small gasoline pump and 3/4" discharge hose to the garden would be easiest. Fill containers if you must, but why not just leave the pump at your spring and fire it up for each watering?
I used a small 2 cycle pump to water my large garden years ago, but ended up burying 1" pvc well pipe from an exterior house spigot for seasonal use.

 

[Mendonsy]

That wasn’t on my list but I think that maybe the best option for now.

Good question. Ive been trying to guestimate that for weeks. At a previous property that was warmer and longer season we used almost 3000 gallons a season. This property isnt as warm(significantly later frost) but more direct sun and wind. So im thinking that 3k a season is more than we will need.

Are you running ibc totes? Do you tarp/paint them to keep alage growth down?

Yes they are IBC totes. I really have not had a problem with algae growth in them, but I do rinse them out each spring before I fill them.

 

[oosik]

My neighbor - a BIG rancher - has two solar powered pumps at remote watering stations. These setups provide water for around 150 cattle.

Solar charges a 12 volt battery. Battery provides power to the 12 volt pump. He sets them up in the spring - takes them down in the fall.

These systems pump water into a standard galvanized water tank. Overflow is returned to the well via 2" pipe on one setup.

I know he replaces the batteries every 8 to 10 years.

One of the systems is on a timer. The other has a float for OFF. The one with the timer has the overflow return pipe.

His main concern when initially setting these up - making the units - "cow proof". Cows can damage a bowling ball - given a chance.

 

[chris the wrench]

Ive only used a pto powered pump on a tow behind spray rig. Will that pump that was recommended above self prime if its pulling water through about 30’ of intake hose?

 

[chris the wrench]

Were I doing this I think a small gasoline pump and 3/4" discharge hose to the garden would be easiest.

I definitely see the benefit of this. We live in the west where wildfire danger is constant, so from that perspective having another pump to run water is advantageous. My only concern with that is another gas engine to keep happy.

 

[Topzide]

2 cycle engine is easier to maintain than 4 cycle!

 

[ponytug]

I definitely see the benefit of this. We live in the west where wildfire danger is constant, so from that perspective having another pump to run water is advantageous. My only concern with that is another gas engine to keep happy.

Running a diesel has a lower fire danger, but finding a diesel powered water pump isn't always easy, and rarely inexpensive.

Personally, I will do a lot to avoid running a gas engine during fire season, but that is from too many fires getting too close.

All the best,

Peter

 

[sixdogs]

I remember the Lehman's catalog or a pamphlet of theirs showed how the Amish pumped water uphill via some natural process. I don't remember but know of Amish with such an arrangement. Maybe some info there for you, FYI

 

[ponytug]

I remember the Lehman's catalog or a pamphlet of theirs showed how the Amish pumped water uphill via some natural process. I don't remember but know of Amish with such an arrangement. Maybe some info there for you, FYI

I've seen hydraulic rams, as well as water and windmill mechanically driven lift pumps. There are some great videos out there, if you like low tech solutions. Fun to see what you can do with linkages and rods.

All the best,

Peter

 

[CalG]

Ive only used a pto powered pump on a tow behind spray rig. Will that pump that was recommended above self prime if its pulling water through about 30’ of intake hose?

I don't know much about roller pumps, but I wouldn't count on one pulling more than a few feet of lift.

But with the capability of producing 300 psi pressure, Pushing water up hill 400 feet Vert is in the ball park .

Of course you would need hose and fittings to hold.

I've got an old fire pump of the centrifugal type. It has all the hardware, plumbing and fittings to use engine vacuum to lift the charge water.

Pretty useless with a diesel engine tractor. ;-)

 

[pmsmechanic]

Pretty useless with a diesel engine tractor. ;-)

Here in irrigation country we use a homemade venturi on the diesel exhaust to develop a vacuum. It actually works better than engine vacuum.

 

[jaxs]

Whether line from spring to holding tank can be left on ground surface without livestock damage or creating problems for mowing ect is a consideration. Whether soil has rocks and roots making it difficult to bury line is a consideration.
A battery powered pump and solar charged battery is probably easiest. It doesn't need high gpm capability, so a smaller (low power consumption) pump running for longer periods is fine since the water is stored. Pumps can push water much farther than they can lift so pay attention to how much head pumps can handle. 20psi discharge is about minimum required to overcome 30 ft of head and still move some water. To give you some idea what a small 12 volt pump can do, 12 v pumps on rvs run 40 to 60 psi and regulated down to 30 psi or so to keep flow consistent over a range of gpm.
I would use 1/2" pvc if I was burying line. Little pumps above don't require that large but can use it and if you upgrade later it will be ready.