Motor Question

/ Motor Question #1  

otlski

Platinum Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
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529
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New Hartford, CT
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Jinma 204, Bobcat mini Ex, Terramite TLB, Polaris quad, Cub garder tractor
<div class="bbWrapper">I am converting a floor standing drill press to variable speed. I bought a KB VFD and a 1 hp, 3 phase motor. The VFD takes a single phase 120 VAC input and produces the 3 phase output. The KB is old school, no keypad programming, instead is a simple speed knob and jumper wire configuration.<br /> <br /> I wired it up on the bench and everything functions fine. The motor case is ungrounding as it it still on the workbench. I checked for stray voltage from ground to the motor frame and found 80 VAC. Not my first rodeo so I figured it was capacitive coupled leakage; low current, and would not be a concern once everything was mounted and grounded. To verify I clipped in a 3 ohm resistor from line ground to the motor frame and tested again. The voltage on the motor frame dropped as expected, reading 150 mVAC.<br /> <br /> The calculation with 150mV across a 3 ohm resistor works out to 50 mA. I guess that surprises me. 50 mA seems high for a current coming as a result of leakage. <br /> <br /> On one hand, if I never checked this I would have grounded the motor frame when it was bolted up to the machine frame; and the VFD has a solid connection from it chassis enclosure to line power ground, so I would have been blissfully unaware. <br /> <br /> What is your take? Does the 50 mA seem reasonable? Do I ignore it and proceed to wire it in properly and not look back?</div>
 
/ Motor Question #2  
<div class="bbWrapper">Well I for one am curious, but cannot add anything to help you out unfortunately...</div>
 
/ Motor Question #3  
<div class="bbWrapper">I am running no fewer than 5 VFDs in my shop to power lathes, mills, grinders, and press drills. I have NEVER even considered checking for leakage. And I keep them powered 24/7 365 to keep the caps up to snuff.<br /> <br /> Think of the $$$ I&#039;ve wasted!</div>
 
/ Motor Question #4  
<div class="bbWrapper">On consideration,<br /> <br /> Leakage in a motor, from it&#039;s energized windings into the motor frame can come from where? Induction? Failed insulation? <br /> <br /> Can you change the VFD carrier frequency to see if that leakage number comes down?</div>
 
/ Motor Question #5  
<div class="bbWrapper">Chinesium clone VFD?</div>
 
/ Motor Question #6  
<div class="bbWrapper">Megger your motor windings<br /> If you don’t have a megger, do you have a known good Inverter duty motor you can temporarily swap in?</div>
 
/ Motor Question #7  
<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 243908" data-quote="otlski" data-source="post: 7166764" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=7166764" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-7166764">otlski said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I am converting a floor standing drill press to variable speed. I bought a KB VFD and a 1 hp, 3 phase motor. The VFD takes a single phase 120 VAC input and produces the 3 phase output. The KB is old school, no keypad programming, instead is a simple speed knob and jumper wire configuration.<br /> <br /> I wired it up on the bench and everything functions fine. The motor case is ungrounding as it it still on the workbench. I checked for stray voltage from ground to the motor frame and found 80 VAC. Not my first rodeo so I figured it was capacitive coupled leakage; low current, and would not be a concern once everything was mounted and grounded. To verify I clipped in a 3 ohm resistor from line ground to the motor frame and tested again. The voltage on the motor frame dropped as expected, reading 150 mVAC.<br /> <br /> The calculation with 150mV across a 3 ohm resistor works out to 50 mA. I guess that surprises me. 50 mA seems high for a current coming as a result of leakage. <br /> <br /> On one hand, if I never checked this I would have grounded the motor frame when it was bolted up to the machine frame; and the VFD has a solid connection from it chassis enclosure to line power ground, so I would have been blissfully unaware.<br /> <br /> What is your take? Does the 50 mA seem reasonable? Do I ignore it and proceed to wire it in properly and not look back? </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> I think the suggestions above are great.<br /> <br /> I would think about using 240V<br /> <br /> Personally, I would bolt it up and see where things are. Inverter driven motors have a tendency towards leakage current from the usual sources, plus of course the stray current induced in the rotor. I&#039;ve seen larger motors with grounding brushes to keep the stray voltage out of the bearings.<br /> <br /> I would be inclined though not to suspect the motor. Rather, I would suspect the VFD for not producing a clean (enough) sine wave. I think it is good practice to put input and output snubbers on VFDs as a general precaution, but especially if you are not using an inverter rated motor or 120V power. A couple of appropriately sized ferrite toroids and you are in business, or you can buy a reactor. I saw someone once used some black pipe elbows and unions to make a square that he wrapped his incoming power line around. He&#039;d measured the inductance and figured out how many wraps he needed to get it to 60Hz resonance. Pretty slick, I thought. More generally you can buy EMI suppressors to put on the input side. E.g.<br /> <script class="js-extraPhrases" type="application/json"> { "lightbox_close": "Close", "lightbox_next": "Next", "lightbox_previous": "Previous", "lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.", "lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow", "lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow", "lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen", "lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails", "lightbox_download": "Download", "lightbox_share": "Share", "lightbox_zoom": "Zoom", "lightbox_new_window": "New window", "lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar" } </script> <div class="bbImageWrapper js-lbImage" title="IMG_1551.jpeg" data-src="https://tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/img_1551-jpeg.3531260/" data-lb-sidebar-href="" data-lb-caption-extra-html="" data-single-image="1"> <img src="https://tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/img_1551-jpeg.3531260/" data-url="" class="bbImage" data-zoom-target="1" style="" alt="IMG_1551.jpeg" title="IMG_1551.jpeg" width="602" height="537" loading="lazy" /> </div><br /> <div> <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Uxcell-CW4L2-20A-S-Noise-Suppressor-Filter/dp/B016EJ5DU2" class="link link--external" target="_blank" rel="nofollow ugc noopener" data-proxy-href=""> Amazon.com </a> </div> <br /> If you can, I would try to use 240VAC as input so the VFD only has to create one phase. That is the nature of a VFD. Using two hots will cut down on the (harmonic) noise generated.<br /> <br /> All the best,<br /> <br /> Peter</div>
 
/ Motor Question #8  
<div class="bbWrapper">Here&#039;s the discussion of the homemade line reactor;<br /> <div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--unfurl js-unfurl fauxBlockLink" data-unfurl="true" data-result-id="92919" data-url="https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/shop-made-line-reactor.177428/" data-host="www.practicalmachinist.com" data-pending="false"> <div class="contentRow"> <div class="contentRow-main"> <h3 class="contentRow-header js-unfurl-title"> <a href="https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/shop-made-line-reactor.177428/" class="link link--external fauxBlockLink-blockLink" target="_blank" rel="nofollow ugc noopener" data-proxy-href=""> Shop made line reactor </a> </h3> <div class="contentRow-snippet js-unfurl-desc">Has there been any &quot;how toos&quot; that describe the in&#039;s and outs of VFD line reactors? A couple of the Siemens MM420s that I are &quot;filtered&quot; , Is there anything to that? Information is never a bad thing CalG:)</div> <div class="contentRow-minor contentRow-minor--hideLinks"> <span class="js-unfurl-favicon"> </span> www.practicalmachinist.com </div> </div> </div> </div> Unfortunately, the photo is not there any more.<br /> <br /> All the best, <br /> <br /> Peter</div>
 
/ Motor Question #9  
<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 124480" data-quote="CalG" data-source="post: 7166828" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=7166828" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-7166828">CalG said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> On consideration,<br /> <br /> Leakage in a motor, from it&#039;s energized windings into the motor frame can come from where? Induction? Failed insulation? <br /> <br /> Can you change the VFD carrier frequency to see if that leakage number comes down? </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Thanks Cal, I will investigate if the jumpers allow me to change the frequency.</div>
 
/ Motor Question #10  
<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 168846" data-quote="mikester" data-source="post: 7166832" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=7166832" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-7166832">mikester said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Chinesium clone VFD? </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Americonian VFD<br /> Chinesium motor</div>
 
/ Motor Question #11  
<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 104516" data-quote="DarkBlack" data-source="post: 7166854" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=7166854" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-7166854">DarkBlack said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Megger your motor windings<br /> If you don’t have a megger, do you have a known good Inverter duty motor you can temporarily swap in? </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>No megger<br /> No other motor of known or unknown goodness!</div>
 
/ Motor Question #12  
<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 35237" data-quote="ponytug" data-source="post: 7166995" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=7166995" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-7166995">ponytug said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I think the suggestions above are great.<br /> <br /> I would think about using 240V<br /> <br /> Personally, I would bolt it up and see where things are. Inverter driven motors have a tendency towards leakage current from the usual sources, plus of course the stray current induced in the rotor. I&#039;ve seen larger motors with grounding brushes to keep the stray voltage out of the bearings.<br /> <br /> I would be inclined though not to suspect the motor. Rather, I would suspect the VFD for not producing a clean (enough) sine wave. I think it is good practice to put input and output snubbers on VFDs as a general precaution, but especially if you are not using an inverter rated motor or 120V power. A couple of appropriately sized ferrite toroids and you are in business, or you can buy a reactor. I saw someone once used some black pipe elbows and unions to make a square that he wrapped his incoming power line around. He&#039;d measured the inductance and figured out how many wraps he needed to get it to 60Hz resonance. Pretty slick, I thought. More generally you can buy EMI suppressors to put on the input side. E.g.<br /> <a href="https://tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/3531260/" target="_blank">View attachment 3531260</a><br /> <div> <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Uxcell-CW4L2-20A-S-Noise-Suppressor-Filter/dp/B016EJ5DU2" class="link link--external" target="_blank" rel="nofollow ugc noopener" data-proxy-href=""> Amazon.com </a> </div> <br /> If you can, I would try to use 240VAC as input so the VFD only has to create one phase. That is the nature of a VFD. Using two hots will cut down on the (harmonic) noise generated.<br /> <br /> All the best,<br /> <br /> Peter </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Thanks for the detailed reply Peter.<br /> <br /> No option to go to 240 VAC.<br /> The motor is VFD rated.<br /> I will move forward on some of your suggestions.</div>
 
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/ Motor Question #13  
<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 35237" data-quote="ponytug" data-source="post: 7166995" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=7166995" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-7166995">ponytug said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I would think about using 240V<br /> <br /> Rather, I would suspect the VFD for not producing a clean (enough) sine wave<br /> <br /> If you can, I would try to use 240VAC as input so the VFD only has to create one phase. That is the nature of a VFD. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>Sorry to say, but you don’t seem to understand how VFD’s work.<br /> Not trying to be sarcastic or criticizing, but….<br /> <br /> 1) Using 240v as an input voltage won’t help motor frame voltage.<br /> The first stage of a VFD converts AC, to a DC bus voltage.<br /> <br /> 2) VFD’s don’t, and shouldn’t produce a clean sine wave. A clean sine wave would overheat a motor at reduced speeds. A VFD is designed to produce a modified sine wave which greatly increases the area under the curve, at the initiation of each waveform, during non-stated rpm frequencies, to promote torque.<br /> <br /> 3) Again, from #1, the VFD has to synthesize 3 phases from a dc bus voltage. It has nothing to do with, if the front is fed L-N, or L-L.</div>
 
/ Motor Question #14  
<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="member: 104516" data-quote="DarkBlack" data-source="post: 7167353" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=7167353" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-7167353">DarkBlack said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> Sorry to say, but you don’t seem to understand how VFD’s work.<br /> Not trying to be sarcastic or criticizing, but….<br /> <br /> 1) Using 240v as an input voltage won’t help motor frame voltage.<br /> The first stage of a VFD converts AC, to a DC bus voltage.<br /> <br /> 2) VFD’s don’t, and shouldn’t produce a clean sine wave. A clean sine wave would overheat a motor at reduced speeds. A VFD is designed to produce a modified sine wave which greatly increases the area under the curve, at the initiation of each waveform, during non-stated rpm frequencies, to promote torque.<br /> <br /> 3) Again, from #1, the VFD has to synthesize 3 phases from a dc bus voltage. It has nothing to do with, if the front is fed L-N, or L-L. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>I do know some things, but I wouldn&#039;t claim to be the expert. <br /> <br /> The reason that I suggested considering 240 over 120 is not about the voltage, it is about improving the quality of the DC on the internal bus, which has been shown many times to affect the quality of the output power. I know of case where folks have added additional capacitance to the DC bus to help stabilize it for particular applications that were experiencing harmonic issues. <br /> <br /> Having two phases instead of one can help reduce harmonics in the output. &quot;<i>Can help</i>&quot;. I suggested it because the OP was having an issue. Some VFDs are better than others and some have better specifications, and some units better builds. Do I think 120 vs 240V is a panacea? No. Could it help a VFD that appears to be having issues? Maybe. Hence the suggestion.<br /> <br /> Just trying to help.<br /> <br /> All the best, <br /> <br /> Peter</div>
 
/ Motor Question #15  
<div class="bbWrapper">First, success. I tested by providing a direct ground to the motor frame and everything worked fine. The voltage on the motor frame went from 90 VAC ungrounded to 30 mVAC with a ground.<br /> <br /> For posterity&#039;s sake...<br /> To get there, I snuck up on it. I replaced the 3 ohm inline-ground resistor with a 1.5 ohm and the voltage across it was cut in half. So the current was consistent at 50 mA. I did the same thing with a 0.7 ohm resistor and the voltage drop halved again. At that point I went for the direct connection via clip leads which probably are not too much different than a very low ohm resistor anyway.<br /> <br /> Along the way, I noticed that my original 90 VAC at 0 rpm (no ground), went down to 45 VAC when at 1725 rpm (no ground).<br /> <br /> Per Cal&#039;s diagnostic step, I did have a jumper setting to double the output frequency, so I did. The voltage started out at 90 VAC at 0 rpm, went to 45 VAC at 1725 rpm, and dropped to 30(ish) VAC at 3400 rpm.<br /> <br /> I put the frequency jumper back to X1 after the experiment.<br /> <br /> I think I am pretty much set. Thanks for the help guys!</div>
 
 
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