MIG or Stick?

[J_J]

Slicer rod or thermic lance with 75 lbs of oxy will will cut the railroad track in a jiffy.
5500 degrees

 

[JohnDeere4300]

And, to confuse things more, I've moved from O/A to O/P. It works just as well and is considerably less expensive.

I heard that 'propane' didn't get as hot as 'acetylene'... Dargo can you tell any difference when using O/P ?

I can get my 3ft acetylene tank filled for $30... Is it cheaper than that ?

 

[jjcc246]

my vote is for both. old lincoln 225amp 220v buzz box are around used for $100 and under. mig 110 volt for light stuff does a nice job. the ones at home depot or lowes are cheap enough and do a good job. just make sure you get one with a gas regulator so when you need pretty you can do it. I only suggest the 110 volt because if you need to transport it you can get the power most anywhere. just an opinion.

 

[Dargo]

I heard that 'propane' didn't get as hot as 'acetylene'... Dargo can you tell any difference when using O/P ?

I can get my 3ft acetylene tank filled for $30... Is it cheaper than that ?

Per literature "Propane does not burn as hot as acetylene in its inner cone, and so it is rarely used for welding. Propane, however, has a very high number of BTUs per cubic foot in its outer cone, and so with the right torch (injector style) can make a faster and cleaner cut than acetylene, and is much more useful for heating and bending than acetylene."

O/A torches usually run at about 5720 degrees. O/P torches run at about 5112 degrees. For most purposes, if you can cut it with O/A, you can cut it with O/P. All of our metal salvage yards as well as most all ship salvage yards use O/P torches for cutting. Besides, if I run out of propane I can always just use the tank from my gas grill and vice versa.

For most cuts that need to be clean, I use my plasma cutter. It can cut at nearly 50,000 degrees yet I can use a 1/4" piece of plywood as a guide without it catching fire.

 

[sizzami]

buy both you will need both I love my mig till I need to weld cast then I love stick and I have to admit 6010 is a lot cheaper than hours of grinding and sandblasting.

I have to say it a gain though any one who says a good looking bead doesnt mean squat is not looking at a good looking bead.

 

[rhett]

What I'm not reading is one fact about machine capacity, even the smallest machine can weld very thick material, it just takes multiple passes. The reason to go with a higher rated machine is Duty Cycle (previously stated), unless the material absolutely must be welded in one pass.

The Shipyard made me a believer of the Innershield Process (flux core).

 

[BlacknTan]

Stopped over my old buddies shop today.. The best welder I ever saw, bar none, and I've been in contact with some pretty fine ones. Used to teach and weld chassis for Nascar Modifieds.. He and his Dad both ran Modifieds in the past.. Today, he just builds cars for others.
He at first recommended stick, until he heard some of my repairs may include sheet steel about 1/8 thick, plus or minus.. He immediately changed his recommendation to MIG. I told him I was thinking on a MillerMatic 211. He loves that machine and recommended it highly.. He himself has a MillerMatic 180, along with his SynchroWave 350's.
He also said he'd have me welding pretty nicely the first day of instruction.. I'd rather give him a couple of bucks to teach me than the Trade School he taught at..

Maybe a stick machine later.. If I find it necessary..

Thanks for all the comments..

 

[wushaw]

Cool

 

[alltoys]

I had access to extremely talented certified high vacuum welders... Many of them were true artists and forgot more about welding than I nwill ever know..

But, for my purposes, what is the best solution... MIG or Stick??

!

My question to you is, What the heck is a VACUME WELDER?? I have welded for more than 30 years and never heard of one. If you have pictures I sure would like to see one!!!!

 

[bobodu]

As much as I hate them...a decent stinky little 120v GOOD QUALITY MIG would be handy for the really thin stuff I might burn through. But there ain't much I can't do with a little stick of 6013 and 40a.
I hate plugged nozzles,slipping feed wheels,changing spools,pulling a welder around to the other side of whatever I'm working on because the leads have to be short,running outta gas at 12:03 on Saturday,bottle rentals or maintenance programs,tossing a rusty spool of otherwise good wire, delay between pulling the trigger and actual wire feed ( like that damnedable Hobart 210 at work) and generally fiddling with knobs until I get it right.
Cost the company $700 for a circuit board for the big Lincoln and $120 for a trigger/lead assembly for the damnedable Hobart 210.

 

[Bill_C]

As several folks have commented, there really isn't a "one size fits all" answer, no "BEST". There are many processes, and for each process there's several variations of equipment. I currently have a 110 volt wire-feed which runs 0.035 flux-core. Very useful for certain jobs, fast and easy and convenient, just be aware of its limitations. I also have an AC/DC "Tombstone" stick welder, again useful but for different jobs than the small wire-feed. Then a few days ago I picked up a used Hobart Handler 175 MIG, with a bottle of CO2, for $200 (needed a new liner and cleaning up the wire feed roll). Sure it's no Synchrowave but at 175 amps it can weld as thick as I need to go around the house...

As far as duty cycle, unless you're a production welder, I believe most of the time it's not an issue. So how often do most of use REALLY weld non-stop beads--the arc constantly lit--for more than 2 or 3 minutes straight? At a typical arc speed of 15 to 20 inches per minute, that'd be 30 to 60 inches of a continuous bead...nonstop...I'd venture that most of us home/hobbiests would burn five or six inches, stop a few seconds to admire/critique our handiwork, then reposition and do the next weld.

Let's face it, most of us are not trying to weld 3 inch thick steel plate in a single pass!! In 15 years of home welding, the thickest I've had to weld was an inch thick, and that merely required multiple passes.

 

[BlacknTan]

My question to you is, What the heck is a VACUME WELDER?? I have welded for more than 30 years and never heard of one. If you have pictures I sure would like to see one!!!!

All our welders had to be certified for high vacuum work.. Not the welding process, but the environment their work had to exist in.
I worked at one of the National Laboratories... Basic research.. Big Bang, and all that stuff. Linear and ring particle accelerators, research reactors, smashing atoms together.. Many of the experiments required vacuum chambers that had to be sealed very well. The welders had to be tested and qualified every so often..
Don't ask me about the science... I'm just a dumb glorified machinist, but the welders we had were the cream of the crop.. For this area... not putting anyone else down..
Besides that, they were usually great guys, always willing to help out with someone's project..
I don't miss the job, but I miss access to a fully equipped machine shop for my personal stuff, and I miss alot of my co-workers..

 

[Bill_C]

Oh, one more thought...I do believe MIG is far easier to learn, it's almost like a hot glue gun. Striking an arc on a rod, and maintaining it as the rod burns, is much harder IMHO.

 

[BlacknTan]

As far as duty cycle, unless you're a production welder, I believe most of the time it's not an issue. So how often do most of use REALLY weld non-stop beads--the arc constantly lit--for more than 2 or 3 minutes straight? At a typical arc speed of 15 to 20 inches per minute, that'd be 30 to 60 inches of a continuous bead...nonstop...I'd venture that most of us home/hobbiests would burn five or six inches, stop a few seconds to admire/critique our handiwork, then reposition and do the next weld.

Let's face it, most of us are not trying to weld 3 inch thick steel plate in a single pass!! In 15 years of home welding, the thickest I've had to weld was an inch thick, and that merely required multiple passes.

I was somewhat concerned about duty cycle myself, but my buddy told me exactly what you stated here.. He said that even a 20% duty cycle would be OK for me, and even for a pro like him.

 

[westcliffe01]

I have to disagree. "Professional" ($1000+) mig welders may lay down 15-20 inches per minute, but you can forget that when welding with 0.030" flux cored wire. I cannot even get 6" of weld before the thermal overload trips on mine. Sometimes not even 4". But clearly if I was welding sheet metal I would be running a lower voltage and higher wire speed and that would produce a longer weld to the point that there would be no practical limit. I weld enough with my machine that I have converted from the 2lb to the 10lb rolls. Nothing I have welded is thicker than 1/4". If you get a 185 amp 20% duty cycle welder it is still a lot better than a 88 amp 20% duty cycle machine.

Be aware of what you intend to weld and if at all possible, try it before you buy.

I was somewhat concerned about duty cycle myself, but my buddy told me exactly what you stated here.. He said that even a 20% duty cycle would be OK for me, and even for a pro like him.

 

[Dargo]

I really don't know about duty cycle too much. My MIG is a MillerMatic 251. It's no huge machine, but it does what I need. Welding up large equipment and fabricating some stuff I've gone through a couple of 10 pound spools of wire in a day and I've never had any issues. As I mentioned before, I personally don't at all care for flux core. You know, different strokes for different folks. I just don't like it and won't use it. I get about 25 pounds of .035 wire used for each tank of shielding gas. I just bought another tank of C25 today and it was about $65.

Basically, my comments were to imply "both". I was in the situation where I was forced to learn stick and use only stick for at least 25 years before I was ever allowed to touch a MIG. I did quite of brazing and TIG working on cars, but we never had a MIG. I bought a MM210 several years ago and was whining about wishing I'd bought the larger size when a guy who had me welding some stuff up for him offered to pay me what I paid for my MM210 so I could buy the MM251 I wanted. Cool!

We're not gonna talk about what that Hypertherm 1250 set me back. I'm afraid my wife will read this. The bottom line for me is that I think the original poster will absolutely LOVE his MM211 (I assume it's the newer version of the MM210?). As time and disposable cash permits, I'm sure he will want a good AC/DC stick. I suggest a mid sized Hobart Handler when the time comes. I've taught my 13 year old daughter to lay down a relatively decent bead with 6013 rods using that machine. Even with stick, a good machine sure does make things easier. Good luck with welding!! Don't ever forget that in almost all cases you can grind off your mistakes and do it again. (In other words; get you some wire, gas and have at it!)

 

[Bill_C]

I dunno Westcliffe, my 110 volt wirefeed (Lincoln Weld Pak 100) can run a pretty long time without tripping the thermal breaker, and I run the big spools of fluxcore too. Welded an engine hoist with it a few years back (before I got the stick welder or my newest MIG), put lots of hours on it that weekend and it might've tripped out...once. In fact I think since I've had it (15 years maybe?) it's probably tripped twice. Maybe it's got better ventilation than some of the others, or maybe I just got lucky and got a good one?

It will however trip the house circuit breaker if it's not on a good 20 amp circuit.

Note, I'm not recommending the Weld Pak 100 (or newer 110 volt models) for continuous use on 1/4 or thicker; though I've welded lots of thick stuff with it, that's not its strength. Mower deck-type repairs (3/16 or thinner) is where it really shines.

For thicker MIG stuff, a 220 volt unit should work great. Mines the 175 amp but the newer 210 amp models should be even sweeter.

Oh, I'm running CO2 as shielding gas with 0.035 E70 wire on the bigger MIG, the CO2 helps penetration.

 

[westcliffe01]

Sounds near identical to mine. How many inches a minute would you say yours can lay down ? I initially thought I may have an overly sensitive thermal overload switch, but then I found that the welding torch was getting smoking hot too, so I concluded that it simply couldn't handle the heat input I needed.

The trailer deck is 10ft long x 5 wide and I welded angle iron on both sides to support the edge of the decking. I probably did stitch welds 2 inches long with a 3 inch gap in between, so that is about 24x2 = 48 inches of weld each side top and bottom. So 16 ft of weld to attach the engle. It took me forever to get those welds done, because I could maybe get 3 stitches done before the overload would trip. On material over 1/8" thick there is only 1 recomemded heat input, which I believe is the highest voltage with a wire feed rate of "2". I tried lower than 2 but the wire would be melting in the copper guide bushing and it would be toast in 5 minutes.

In retrospect I needed a 240V machine with at least a 185 current rating, but they were close to $800 and at the time the big box stores were not selling them (only a larger and even more expensive version with a cart). I guess all I am trying to say is beware of the "inexpensive consumer grade" machines.

 

[Bill_C]

I've never really timed my speed; I've certainly done plenty of 3 or 4 inch skip welds without really pausing much in between. The engine hoist had lots of 5/16 and 3/8 stuff, and I weaved quite a bit to build up the weld, probably was doing 10 inches a minute with the weaving. Not what I'd consider a "structural weld" but I didn't have any trouble with either the welder tripping or the gun overheating.

I welded a rolling stand for the radial arm saw a few months back, probably 20 feet of weld total, did it in an evening without any overheating. That was all 3/16 thick tubing or 1/4 inch plate.

 

[JohnDeere4300]

Per literature "Propane does not burn as hot as acetylene in its inner cone, and so it is rarely used for welding. Propane, however, has a very high number of BTUs per cubic foot in its outer cone, and so with the right torch (injector style) can make a faster and cleaner cut than acetylene, and is much more useful for heating and bending than acetylene."

O/A torches usually run at about 5720 degrees. O/P torches run at about 5112 degrees. For most purposes, if you can cut it with O/A, you can cut it with O/P. All of our metal salvage yards as well as most all ship salvage yards use O/P torches for cutting. Besides, if I run out of propane I can always just use the tank from my gas grill and vice versa.

For most cuts that need to be clean, I use my plasma cutter. It can cut at nearly 50,000 degrees yet I can use a 1/4" piece of plywood as a guide without it catching fire.

Thanks for the info!

I've never used O/P, So I didn't know it would make a faster & cleaner cut, and I didn't know it was better for heating & bending... But I'll give it a try.

Yea that's one good thing about O/P.... Just take the tank off the grill, or a tank out of the camper.