Mcormick starting issues

[IloveJesus]

I have a diesel 40 HP McCormick. I changed the fuel filter about 2 weeks ago, and air bled the system, because there was water in the fuel.
Tractor has been running well since.
This morning I went to start, and it would only stay running with the key in the start position, as soon as I release the key to the run position the tractor shuts off.
I put fresh fuel in it, also have been putting conditioner in as well.
I removed the filter and there is no evidence of water or debris in there. I re-bled the system, but only at the main bleeder screw, and there really wasn't any air in there. And alas still the same thing.

Temperature is pretty cold here, close to minus 35 Celsius, but the tractor is plugged and the coil is warm.
It has started in this cold weather all last week, so the cold is not the problem.


Any thoughts?

 

[Stimw]

My best guess is a problem with fuel shut off solenoid only opening in the start position.

 

[IloveJesus]

My best guess is a problem with fuel shut off solenoid only opening in the start position.

Thanks Stimw.

Would the shut off solenoid still allow the tractor to start with the key on the start position?
And would it give indication that it is about to go, or would it stop suddenly?

 

[IloveJesus]

My best guess is a problem with fuel shut off solenoid only opening in the start position.

Also is there a way to test it?

 

[Stimw]

The solenoid opens when 12 V power is sent to it. Turn the power off (key) and it closes shutting off fuel.
If the solenoid has a plug you could unplug it and hot wire then try starting.
Problem is possibly in the key switch contacts not connecting/dirty in run position.

 

[Dave M7040]

Mountain like just north of South Mountain and Nationview Public School?

Exactly what model is your McCormick and what age is it?

Do you have a wiring diagram in your owner's manual. If you do plse post it.

The engine stop solenoids usually have two internal coils. One called the pull in coil and the other, lower powered , the hold coil.

Post a photo of the side of your engine with the injection pump. I need to see if your solenoid is external to the injection pump.

Found this web site for Daedong engines which nis what your tractor likely has but will need more info from engine label(s)
http://vi.dzima.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Daedong-Workshop-Manual-Production-Release-1.0.pdf
Dave M7040

 

[IloveJesus]

The solenoid opens when 12 V power is sent to it. Turn the power off (key) and it closes shutting off fuel.
If the solenoid has a plug you could unplug it and hot wire then try starting.
Problem is possibly in the key switch contacts not connecting/dirty in run position.

Ok Thanks Stimw,
Will check it out and let post back

 

[IloveJesus]

Mountain like just north of South Mountain and Nationview Public School?

Exactly what model is your McCormick and what age is it?

Do you have a wiring diagram in your owner's manual. If you do plse post it.

The engine stop solenoids usually have two internal coils. One called the pull in coil and the other, lower powered , the hold coil.

Post a photo of the side of your engine with the injection pump. I need to see if your solenoid is external to the injection pump.

Found this web site for Daedong engines which nis what your tractor likely has but will need more info from engine label(s)
http://vi.dzima.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Daedong-Workshop-Manual-Production-Release-1.0.pdf
Dave M7040

Hi Dave,

Yep, Just north of South Mountain.

Thanks for the link, very helpful.

Either 2011 or 2012 X10.40.

No wiring diagram. .

I will post a photo.

Thanks for the help

 

[IloveJesus]

Mountain like just north of South Mountain and Nationview Public School?

Exactly what model is your McCormick and what age is it?

Do you have a wiring diagram in your owner's manual. If you do plse post it.

The engine stop solenoids usually have two internal coils. One called the pull in coil and the other, lower powered , the hold coil.

Post a photo of the side of your engine with the injection pump. I need to see if your solenoid is external to the injection pump.

Found this web site for Daedong engines which nis what your tractor likely has but will need more info from engine label(s)
http://vi.dzima.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Daedong-Workshop-Manual-Production-Release-1.0.pdf
Dave M7040

Hi Dave,

I tried posting a picture, but don't seem to be able to for some reason

The fuel pump, has the solenoid attached to it at the end (near the front of the tractor), so no external shut off solenoid. It has a single wiring connection going to it. It looks similar to the diagram in the link you sent me on page 3.5.2 BASIC PRINCIPLE OF GOVERNOR SYSTEM
Hope this helps. I will try again and post a pic.

I called Reis in Winchester and they affirmed what Stimw was saying about disconnecting it and bypassing the solenoid to start the tractor.

Will try and remove the connector without breaking it, in this cold.

Thanks every one for all your help.

Will keep you posted.

 

[RandyT]

Also don't overlook an issue with the key switch getting gummed up in the cold and not maintaining the correct contacts in the switch.

 

[IloveJesus]

Also don't overlook an issue with the key switch getting gummed up in the cold and not maintaining the correct contacts in the switch.

Thanks Randy,

Will check that as well

 

[IloveJesus]

Also don't overlook an issue with the key switch getting gummed up in the cold and not maintaining the correct contacts in the switch.

Thanks Randy,

Will check that as well

 

[IloveJesus]

Ok so I removed the connector and it has 3 wires (see pic), which one gets bypasssed?
one is blue, one black and one red with a white stripe through it

 

[Dave M7040]

Seeing there are three wires going to the solenoid, the pull in one is likely the blue wire as it is larger.

The black would be ground. The test light would confirm this easily.

Invest $10 in a 12 volt test light available at Canadian Tire, Princess Auto or NAPA.

Disconnect the solenoid connector, perhaps heating with a hair dryer to reduce likelihood of breaking it.

Step one would be to determine if Black is ground. Connect alligator clip to + terminal on battery and then touch black wire on the side of the connector away from the solenoid.

If light comes on then I am correct.

Step 2. Connect alligator clip to battery negative terminal. Hold sharp probe end against first the blue and then the red with White stripe.

Try this with someone turning the key switch to see if you find which one wire is getting power when in the key switch start position.
It is likely that both non ground wires are powered in the start position.

Step 3: Find out which wire gets power with the key switch in the ON position.

Once this information is determined it will be possible to say if the problem is in the key switch or a relay or, in the solenoid itself.

Before jumping anything, you need to know which color wire is the ground.

Dave M7040

 

[IloveJesus]

So I went to Case in Winchester to get some info on the wires for the solenoid.
I got the wiring diagram and the black is the ground.
I picked up a tester, like Dave suggested and came home and tested the plug.

1-connected the clip to the positive and the light came on, you were right Dave, but then I connected to the red and the light came on as well. This is with the key off.
2-key on, same thing.
All of the above steps, there is no power to the blue wire.
By the way the diagram is as follows
-Blue-hold
-Black-ground
Red-pull
3-Cranked the engine with the clip on the negative terminal and the probe on the red, light went brighter and flickered on and off. Hmm, something must be not connecting properly somewhere. I could hear a sound, as I was turning the key from on to start, on the firewall in the engine compartment near the cab, as I was alone I couldn't`t check it. It was as if something is connecting and loosing connection. So I left it alone till my wife got home so I could check it. There was no power to the blue wire in any of the steps

Then later I charged up a battery, and used it to get more cranking amps, because its so cold that the tractor battery would not crank very long.

I rechecked the blue and now it was getting power, so I plug the connector back in and fired up the tractor, which started after a short while of cracking, Praise God, for that.

I used all afternoon yesterday, but didn't shut it off.
So now I will go and try it again.

This leads me to think that this may be more of a connection or key contact as was mentioned in this forum before.

Will keep you all posted and thanks very much.

God bless

 

[LouNY]

Or a relay

 

[Dave M7040]

So I went to Case in Winchester to get some info on the wires for the solenoid.
I got the wiring diagram and the black is the ground.
I picked up a tester, like Dave suggested and came home and tested the plug.

1-connected the clip to the positive and the light came on, you were right Dave, but then I connected to the red and the light came on as well. This is with the key off.
2-key on, same thing.
All of the above steps, there is no power to the blue wire.
By the way the diagram is as follows
-Blue-hold
-Black-ground
Red-pull
3-Cranked the engine with the clip on the negative terminal and the probe on the red, light went brighter and flickered on and off. Hmm, something must be not connecting properly somewhere. I could hear a sound, as I was turning the key from on to start, on the firewall in the engine compartment near the cab, as I was alone I couldn't`t check it. It was as if something is connecting and loosing connection. So I left it alone till my wife got home so I could check it. There was no power to the blue wire in any of the steps

Then later I charged up a battery, and used it to get more cranking amps, because its so cold that the tractor battery would not crank very long.

I rechecked the blue and now it was getting power, so I plug the connector back in and fired up the tractor, which started after a short while of cracking, Praise God, for that.

I used all afternoon yesterday, but didn't shut it off.
So now I will go and try it again.

This leads me to think that this may be more of a connection or key contact as was mentioned in this forum before.

Will keep you all posted and thanks very much.

God bless

Could you share the wiring diagram you got from the Winchester dealer. It might help me better understand what is going on.

If you have it in electronic form as a pdf file email it to me

david.petepiece@sympatico.ca

Most tractors have relays that are the same. Swapping those that are the same may suddenly show you which relay is not working properly.

Dave M7040

 

[Dave M7040]

So I went to Case in Winchester to get some info on the wires for the solenoid.
I got the wiring diagram and the black is the ground.
I picked up a tester, like Dave suggested and came home and tested the plug.

1-connected the clip to the positive and the light came on, you were right Dave, but then I connected to the red and the light came on as well. This is with the key off.
2-key on, same thing.
All of the above steps, there is no power to the blue wire.
By the way the diagram is as follows
-Blue-hold
-Black-ground
Red-pull
3-Cranked the engine with the clip on the negative terminal and the probe on the red, light went brighter and flickered on and off. Hmm, something must be not connecting properly somewhere. I could hear a sound, as I was turning the key from on to start, on the firewall in the engine compartment near the cab, as I was alone I couldn't`t check it. It was as if something is connecting and loosing connection. So I left it alone till my wife got home so I could check it. There was no power to the blue wire in any of the steps

Then later I charged up a battery, and used it to get more cranking amps, because its so cold that the tractor battery would not crank very long.

I rechecked the blue and now it was getting power, so I plug the connector back in and fired up the tractor, which started after a short while of cracking, Praise God, for that.

I used all afternoon yesterday, but didn't shut it off.
So now I will go and try it again.

This leads me to think that this may be more of a connection or key contact as was mentioned in this forum before.

Will keep you all posted and thanks very much.

God bless

Could you share the wiring diagram you got from the Winchester dealer. It might help me better understand what is going on.

If you have it in electronic form as a pdf file email it to me

david.petepiece@sympatico.ca

If you just have a sheet of paper photograph it and post here.

Most tractors have some relays that are the same. Swapping those that are the same may suddenly show you which relay is not working properly as your problem moves or changes.

Dave M7040

 

[Phillip w]

I'm going to play "devils advocate". Please read my post cold weather and junk fuel in owning and operating. You stated you temps at about 30 below Fahrenheit. At that cold I'd be cutting the fuel with kerosene as well as using a fuel supplement. My massey (believe me it is not a cold weather tractor) acted the same way. It ran as long as the key was in the start position else it would die. Put a heat lamp on the injector pump and fuel lines. Finally it would run some and then die. Kept playing with it and finally got it to run on its own. It ran pretty rough, but finally smoothed out. Added more supplement and let it run well over an hour. You have got to have a hot battery to trigger relays and solenoid. You mentioned you had power to blue wire and it started after "piggy backing" on another battery.
Now, for tractor #2: an old allis Chalmers basically all mechanical. It got cold and gelled up. Put on knew fuel filter, added some supplement and got it going. Let it run about an hour.(problem solved or so I thought). We got down to about 15 below zero Fahrenheit and I had more trouble. Put a heat lamp on the injector pump and fuel lines. Put the wife's hair dryer blowing in the air breather. Put a boost-a-charge battery charger on it. Got it running but it would suck the fuel filter dry. Now this fuel filter was at most one week old. Fiddled and piddled. No luck. Fuel filter looked great. Went got a knew fuel filter and "presto" got it running and let it run for about an hour and a half. Added more supplement and winter blend fuel. Both tractors give me a fit. Massey acting similar to yours. Problem =Cold and fuel. I've seen it time and time again. Guy think the got electrical problems, injector pump problem, injector problem and it turns out to be cold and fuel problem. If you plug in a block heater and use you glow plugs, you haven't dealt with the cold fuel. As the fuel tries to move through the lines and filter at 30 below you can still have trouble even with supplement. At 30 below, I generally start mixing in a little kerosene. Just my thoughts.

 

[Dave M7040]

Just buy the fuel rated for the operating temps and forget playing chemist.

-40F rated colored diesel. Never gels and never any additives.

On a large winter construction site I don't see people running around adding kerosene.

A few cents more per liter but well worth it.

Dave M7040