Massey Ferguson 1740M Hydro: LOSS OF POWER when hot!

[goblism]

I wonder if it is worth looking into other brand of injectors or not? The Shibaura N4LDI appears to the use the Denso 1160 injectors which a set of 4 are around $1600. Significantly cheaper. I know they use this engine in a ton of other equipment and not just these Massey compacts.

 

[JWR]

I don't recall has any one relocated or added a fan to cool the ECU.

BOY! That is a good question given this puzzling history. It might not be going so far as to kick into what we think of as a "limp mode" well known with cars and trucks and yet might be having a "cut back the power" mode of some sort ... probably described nowhere in public literature. Wonder if the dealer or anyone in the picture has really studied the 4 inch thick shop service manual? I've tried that on other model MF tractors and it is not easy to do. Depends on the problem of course. One would think such a mode would not happen unless the engine is overheating but that sensing and reaction stuff with an ECU is very obscure to us mere mortals...i.e. might be combinations of sensed conditions.

 

[TopSpeed1]

I'm currently researching the injectors and possible 3rd party (aftermarket) distributors. I'm not saying the injectors are the issue, just doing my pre-search research. Cost wise It looks like $449(ea). Lots to be done on my end before I make this info fully public (as to not give out any false info).

 

[TopSpeed1]

BOY! That is a good question given this puzzling history. It might not be going so far as to kick into what we think of as a "limp mode" well known with cars and trucks and yet might be having a "cut back the power" mode of some sort ... probably described nowhere in public literature. Wonder if the dealer or anyone in the picture has really studied the 4 inch thick shop service manual? I've tried that on other model MF tractors and it is not easy to do. Depends on the problem of course. One would think such a mode would not happen unless the engine is overheating but that sensing and reaction stuff with an ECU is very obscure to us mere mortals...i.e. might be combinations of sensed conditions.

I know these aren't as sophisticated as our automobiles, but if we did have a limp mode, shouldn't an idiot light of some sorts come on within the dash?
hmmmm, I see about 12 possible lights (all dimmed out) in the cluster dash (right side).

 

[TopSpeed1]

No lights (other than forward PTO light) has ever come on while mowing and the power loss occurs. Here's my dash and idiot light lineup and we do have a "Caution triangle" one?... (I kinda think this is a safety warning however)

 

[DarkBlack]

I still don’t believe it’s the turbo.
I still don’t believe it’s fuel injectors.

All your symptoms point towards a sudden, serious lack of fuel. Turbo definitely won’t cause that, neither will a bank of injectors.

Your engine is thermostat controlled, water cooled. Working it hard snowblowing should result in just about the same equilibrium engine temperature as working it in July.
What certainly WILL get hotter in July is all the electronics, not cooled by the radiator.
Again, CPU controllers, sensors, and pumps.

Putting a heat gun momentarily over electronics is an old school, but successful way to find intermittent heat related issues. Conversely you could put a well prepared bag of ice over suspected electronics during hot weather, and see if your issue vanishes

 

[goblism]

I still don’t believe it’s the turbo.
I still don’t believe it’s fuel injectors.

All your symptoms point towards a sudden, serious lack of fuel. Turbo definitely won’t cause that, neither will a bank of injectors.

Your engine is thermostat controlled, water cooled. Working it hard snowblowing should result in just about the same equilibrium engine temperature as working it in July.
What certainly WILL get hotter in July is all the electronics, not cooled by the radiator.
Again, CPU controllers, sensors, and pumps.

Putting a heat gun momentarily over electronics is an old school, but successful way to find intermittent heat related issues. Conversely you could put a well prepared bag of ice over suspected electronics during hot weather, and see if your issue vanishes

I have questioned if the electronic solenoid for the pump or the ECU may be overheating, haven't tested mine specifically. The injectors themselves are electronic

 

[Dmacleo]

Putting a heat gun momentarily over electronics is an old school, but successful way to find intermittent heat related issues. Conversely you could put a well prepared bag of ice over suspected electronics during hot weather, and see if your issue vanishes

this, in my opinion,is 2 very good ideas.

 

[TopSpeed1]

I wouldn't rule out any electronic component [over-heating] causing failure. A few weird things to throw into the mix...
--Tractor mowed hard in past Julys, and with the A/C on; for the first 4 years. Flawlessly.
--You stop it for just 30 mins, rest it/cool it (ever so slightly when it's still 90F out) and you will get 5-10mins of full power again. Rest it for an hour, you may get 10-15 mins of normal power.
--The A/C (on) definitely kicks in the power loss sooner, opposite for turning on the heater (full on) then you get maybe 10mins of extended full power run time, so I would definitely rule out any in-cab or dash (or under steering stem - fuse box area) mounted electronics.....

..... Heater on full is tough to do (in 90F) especially with a cab tractor, even with some windows opened. I do experience longer run times however with the heater full-on and noting; in 50-60F (Fall weather), this method is my go-to and I then can mow 2.9 acres straight with zero power loss. So Fall mowing w windows open is still quite warm, but tolerable, especially when it gets the job done in one run.

So yes, I agree that electronics are sensitive to heat. This however will be a bear to nail down. I personally don't want to have a heat gun aimed intentionally on possibly good and working circuit boards or modules. I cannot risk potentially adding in another problem, or down the road. This is just too risky of a "process of elimination" especially with a tractor that seems like it's already walking on pins and needles.

 

[LouNY]

I wouldn't rule out any electronic component [over-heating] causing failure. A few weird things to throw into the mix...
--Tractor mowed hard in past Julys, and with the A/C on; for the first 4 years. Flawlessly.
--You stop it for just 30 mins, rest it/cool it (ever so slightly when it's still 90F out) and you will get 5-10mins of full power again. Rest it for an hour, you may get 10-15 mins of normal power.
--The A/C (on) definitely kicks in the power loss sooner, opposite for turning on the heater (full on) then you get maybe 10mins of extended full power run time, so I would definitely rule out any in-cab or dash (or under steering stem - fuse box area) mounted electronics.....

..... Heater on full is tough to do (in 90F) especially with a cab tractor, even with some windows opened. I do experience longer run times however with the heater full-on and noting; in 50-60F (Fall weather), this method is my go-to and I then can mow 2.9 acres straight with zero power loss. So Fall mowing w windows open is still quite warm, but tolerable, especially when it gets the job done in one run.

So yes, I agree that electronics are sensitive to heat. This however will be a bear to nail down. I personally don't want to have a heat gun aimed intentionally on possibly good and working circuit boards or modules. I cannot risk potentially adding in another problem, or down the road. This is just too risky of a "process of elimination" especially with a tractor that seems like it's already walking on pins and needles.

Just add a 12 volt fan blowing air across the components.