Looking for inexpensive AW46 - Hydraulic Oil

[D&D]

Just a couple of things. We are assuming that both of these fluids - hydraulic and motor oils - are mineral oils and have the same base structure. And that is mostly true for everything except the exotics like brake fluid, aircraft fluids, and high vacuum fluids.
Anyway, for a long time, one of the main differences in common hydraulic oils vs motor oils was that hydraulic oils had a lower viscosity overall. Hydraulic fluids flowed better because they stayed low viscosity at low temperatures. Getting them to do that requires more refining and is part of why they cost so much.
Motor oils used viscosity improvers instead of expensive refining, and viscosity improvers could only do so much. Their temperature range was limited. The viscosity improvers were additives and they concentrated on improving the high temperature side, since motor oils had to withstand higher temperatures.... and that hurt their viscosity at low temps.
So the guy working his hydraulics on cheap motor oil would fill the hydraulics with motor oil and when he went to crank it up in severe cold the hydraulic pump would immediately flash a starve warning on the dash. Unless our guy was doing some sort of preheat like keeping it inside a shop, the cold motor oil was too thick for the suction side of the hydraulic pump - hence the dash light warning. JD commercial equipment ran into that when they tried using their motor oil in the hydraulics 20 years ago. But recently there have been some changes in the way that motor oils use viscosity improvers and especially now that synthetic motor oils are made for a reasonable price - causing motor oil to flow better at low temps.

So viscosity range in the cold was & is a known big difference between hydraulic and motor oil fluids that has been solved lately. Not perfectly, but it is a lot better now with the new super low viscosity synthetic motor oils.

The one spec we still don't know anything about between hydraulic fluids and motor oils is still a bother.
That remaining problem spec bothering us is the compatibility of the motor oil additives with the elastomers and some of the plated parts. This is mostly with shaft seals and hoses - that are used throughout the hydraulic system. "Compatibility" in elastomers means, "does the fluid or additives cause the seal and hose material to swell and soften?".

There are ISO, DIN, SAE, and ASTM tests for what is called "elastomer compatibility". They limit the swelling and softening of seals. My beef with the hydraulic fluid industry is that we have the tests and standands availiable, but the hydraulic fluids do not require those tests in their hydraulic fluid "standards". So we cannot know for sure. We know that motor oils have pretty good wide compatibility, but we just don't know about hydraulic oils. My suspicion is that the compatibility tests are expensive to do and to test for.....nd that cuts into profits. It also provides a entry point - a "low bar" - for cheap hydraulic fluids.

And so I finally get to the one reason why I spend the extra dollars for name brand hydraulic fluid. Not because I know it is any better, but I hope it is. I am basically gambling that the name brands do test for compatibility because they have more to lose if they get it wrong.

You may say my reasons are based is pretty poor logic and I would agree. Gambling is a pretty poor reason for me to be spending the extra on higher priced name brand hydaulic oils. But it is all I have to work with. YMMV....
rScotty

I wouldnt go with poor logic, just another question of sorts. ISO 6734.4(2015) points to ISO 11158 for standards of mineral oil (HH, non-inhibited) hydraulic fluids, ISO 11158 points to viscosity standards in ISO 3448, ISO 11158 points to ISO 6072 for elastomer compatibility (other than NBR1 eg FPM, EPDM, AU) ISO 11158 points to other ISO's for testing methods. There are other charts to follow depending on ISO symbol. Why do you think testing is not required to meet standard(s) ?

 

[oldnslo]

I presume the JCB excavator in the picture of the OP post is the machine he was asking about. How many hundreds of dollars of pumps, motors, directional valve on that machine vs cost of 55 gallons of oil?

I understand being concerned about cost but also try to look at the big picture.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I presume the JCB excavator in the picture of the OP post is the machine he was asking about. How many hundreds of dollars of pumps, motors, directional valve on that machine vs cost of 55 gallons of oil?

I understand being concerned about cost but also try to look at the big picture.

Hundreds of dollars? I bet the main pump alone in it, goes for $10,000.00 or more...

I can't imagine why anyone would be looking for cheapo oil for it!

SR

 

[D&D]

Would someone please identify what cheap o oil is? Is that any fluid that doesn’t carry the oem (JD, Kubota, JCB, Massey, Ford, GM, etc) label. Seems like the hints are in that direction although it hasn’t been said. Does that apply to all fluids in your tractor/vehicles/homes?

 

[oldnslo]

D&D
What identifies cheap o oil is a tough question to answer. My thoughts on that subject are that it depends on several factors
1) what type of components are in the system? I.e. simple gear pumps, piston pumps, clutches or brakes, etc.
2) what pressure does system operate at. Higher pressures put more demands on the oil for maintaining fluid film
3) ambient operating temperatures vs working operating temps.

Most good hydraulic oils have anti-foaming properties along with anti-wear chemical makeup to work with different bearing materials used is hydraulic components.

I do not have enough oil analysis chemical knowledge to state for these types of components operating under these conditions you should look at these products only.

You have a tough decision to make.

 

[tractortroof]

I know someone who runs a heavy equipment company in Florida and she says put AW-68 in my backhoe. They run excavators non stop 8 hours per day all year round in borrow pits. They have their own mechanics and are a multi generational land management company. Here it comes from Gate petroleum, I order through her. Last time I bought was pre COVID ~$400 for 55 gallons I can’t really remember

 

[Bmantel]

Thanks for all the information and replies everyone.

Once again, I'm impressed with the amount of information that's in all of your heads!


Id have to agree that hydraulics seem to be a bit of a "black-art" with specifications. And I think that the industry is designed to further that idea in order to keep a closed shop type of business.

I'm rather disappointed, actually, but that's just the state of how things are. Like trying to find out the proper wiper ring or other rebuild parts for an old hydraulic cylinder...

So I will go with the Service Pro fluid when the time comes. It meets many of the same specs called out on the JBC oil and that is the final straw for me.

I agree that Tractor Supply seems to have low quality fluids, and will not purchase their products.

As to the cost of the machine, yah I paid around $42k for it, and will dump a lot more into it by just following all the PM's required. But it's stupid to say just dump in the best, most expensive fluid available - this is the real world, not your moms basement!

Do you run full synthetic (type IV/V) PAO/ester based motor oils in your daily driver? (Not the Mobile 1 stuff- crap! Which is mostly type III hydro cracked dinosaur juice).
Don't think so!

But that's ok too, if your application doesn't actually require it.

I will need over 100 gallons and only want to pay as much as is necessary, and not one penny more. And to do this, it would be nice if there were better industry standards that were clearly stated and able to be verified.

It should be easy to compare different products.... Nope. Not here!

Thanks again,
Blake

 

[jyoutz]

Thanks for all the information and replies everyone.

Once again, I'm impressed with the amount of information that's in all of your heads!


Id have to agree that hydraulics seem to be a bit of a "black-art" with specifications. And I think that the industry is designed to further that idea in order to keep a closed shop type of business.

I'm rather disappointed, actually, but that's just the state of how things are. Like trying to find out the proper wiper ring or other rebuild parts for an old hydraulic cylinder...

So I will go with the Service Pro fluid when the time comes. It meets many of the same specs called out on the JBC oil and that is the final straw for me.

I agree that Tractor Supply seems to have low quality fluids, and will not purchase their products.

As to the cost of the machine, yah I paid around $42k for it, and will dump a lot more into it by just following all the PM's required. But it's stupid to say just dump in the best, most expensive fluid available - this is the real world, not your moms basement!

Do you run full synthetic (type IV/V) PAO/ester based motor oils in your daily driver? (Not the Mobile 1 stuff- crap! Which is mostly type III hydro cracked dinosaur juice).
Don't think so!

But that's ok too, if your application doesn't actually require it.

I will need over 100 gallons and only want to pay as much as is necessary, and not one penny more. And to do this, it would be nice if there were better industry standards that were clearly stated and able to be verified.

It should be easy to compare different products.... Nope. Not here!

Thanks again,
Blake

All I know about those large excavators is they drink hydraulic fluid regularly. A lot of loggers use them for road work and sometimes as a log loader. Their service rig trucks seem to be full of barrels of hydraulic fluid and I see them pumping fluid into their excavators every week.

 

[cbosworth]

Happy New Year!

The wife wants to kill me as I made a 'small' purchase at the local auction house.... Just a little excavator. Nothing new to see here!

I tried to hide it, put it behind the garage and all such, but I got caught...View attachment 842175

Now, unfortunately, it needs a hydraulic fluid change - like over 55 gallons worth.

Any recommendations on an inexpensive source of hydraulic fluid with some actual specific approvals?

The cheapest I found is Service Pro (see PDF) in 55gal Drums - about $550/ea. or so. Looking to replace JCB's AW46 oil.

Thanks everyone,
BlakeView attachment 842173

Bring home a gallon at a time. By late March it should be full.

 

[eddieirvine]

I have found out Tractor supply if you have one in your area has good quality oil at a good price without getting into specs you need, but i am sure they will have what you need there