Looking for a Welder what should I be looking for?

AlanB · May 9, 2006

I also am firmly in the get classes, hang out with someone or something, but get a touch of experience before laying down your money.

If you are set on laying out some money, you will be well ahead to buy a quality name brand. Lincoln or Miller, some like Hobart as well. You will pay a little more up front, but in the long run (and a good welder will be around a LONG time) you will be much happier.

valleydweller1 · May 10, 2006

My two cents:

Start with a Stick Welder. I started welding about 8 years ago and have used AC stick, DC stick and MIG. All my welding was done on other people's machines. When it was time for me to buy my own, I chose stick. Here's why:

While MIG does give a prettier weld and is easier, it takes less skill. I equate it to learning to drive a stick before you go to the easier automatic.

Another advantage of stick is the ease of driveway welding. The shielding gas that blows through the MIG gun can get blown away quickly by the weld. A stick welder creates it's own gas, and the weld is further shielded by the slag.

Stick welders are cheaper. I'm not sure about operating costs, but I think they are mostly comparable. As someone else said on here: You won't run out of gas at noon on a Saturday with stick.

I'm a few miles south of Salem, and I'll be home on Thursday and Friday. PM me if you'd like to come down and give welding a try.

dfkrug · May 10, 2006

Yes, Bill, you are correct. Nicola Tesla won the AC vs DC
battle with Edison, as I recall. AC can be transformed and
distributed with hi voltage and small wires; DC can not.

Anyway, the fear of electricity is pandemic. Arc welding uses
a very low voltage (about 30V) and hi current (100+ Amps).
That makes it near-impossible to get the few milliamps thru
your heart that you need to get electrocuted. 120V household
electricity is far more lethal.

I started arc welding with an AC buzz-box, which is the most
DIFFICULT to learn. The best-kept secret was going to DC.
My Miller Thunderbolt ($250 used) works better in every way
from my old Lincoln 225S AC unit. I also love my current
and 2nd MIG and look forward to trying TIG some day. The
only thing my oxy-acet rig is used for anymore is brazing and
heating. Plasma has been a revelation.

Farwell · May 10, 2006

dfkrug,
I have heard that DC buzz box welding is much better in some ways than the AC alone. I have the Lincoln AC only buzz box and am looking for a good deal on a used AC/DC Lincoln to give the DC a try. Just started welding again after several years of not working with metal.
I have a 120 volt Hobart AC/DC mig rig but have never done the comparison.
Farwell

mschuck · May 10, 2006

Thanks for all the great advice and offers to show me the basics. If I can find the time I'll contact you local guys.

I really don't have a problem dropping a couple hundred just to get started because I know I'm going to love it. I just like being able to build and fix things myself. Plus I've got this huge shop just waiting to be used for some real work and not just storage.
I do really want to take a class but finding the time is a bit of a problem with summer here and a new baby just 2 months away it's not going to happen soon and I've got projects that need doing now (still don't have that cup holder on the new tractor /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I do know a guy near by that does professional welding that I could probably bug a bit for advice, etc.

My neighbor just sent me an e-mail with a link for plans to build a saw mill and that really got me excited because I've got this huge log just laying there waiting to be cut up and it's too pretty to just make firewood out of.

One question I have is what do the amps ratings mean? For instance a guy just posted a 170 amp mig 220v single phase welder with a 90 cubic foot argon tank for $200 on CraigsList.

Another question is are wire feed welders mig welders are the terms interchangeable, that's sort of the vibe I'm getting

Farwell · May 10, 2006

mschuck,
I would take a look at the welder real quick. If it is any good, in my opinion, $200 is an, awesome price and it will not be for sale very long.
Farwell

wushaw · May 10, 2006

( Thanks for all the great advice and offers to show me the basics. If I can find the time I'll contact you local guys.

I really don't have a problem dropping a couple hundred just to get started because I know I'm going to love it. I just like being able to build and fix things myself. Plus I've got this huge shop just waiting to be used for some real work and not just storage.
I do really want to take a class but finding the time is a bit of a problem with summer here and a new baby just 2 months away it's not going to happen soon and I've got projects that need doing now (still don't have that cup holder on the new tractor /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I do know a guy near by that does professional welding that I could probably bug a bit for advice, etc.

My neighbor just sent me an e-mail with a link for plans to build a saw mill and that really got me excited because I've got this huge log just laying there waiting to be cut up and it's too pretty to just make firewood out of.

One question I have is what do the amps ratings mean? For instance a guy just posted a 170 amp mig 220v single phase welder with a 90 cubic foot argon tank for $200 on CraigsList.

Another question is are wire feed welders mig welders are the terms interchangeable, that's sort of the vibe I'm getting
)

200.00 bucks for a 170 amp mig is god awful cheap, check the brand to see if it ain't a chinese unit.
I would stick with the known brands, Miller, Lincoln, Hobart and ESAB and Thermal Dynamics for Plasma cutting department.
Parts are readily available for all these brands.
Mig and wire feed is the same process.

Highbeam · May 10, 2006

A new baby, if it is your first, can actually buy you some extra time if you play your cards right. The second new kid, if the first one is still one or two years old will surely sap your time. But totally worth it since you will have the rest of your life to weld and only one chance to scrape poo off your daughter's parts. I need to intentionally slow down and spend time with my 3yr and 8 month old girls.

I would go see that professional welder buddy and ask to watch him work. He doesn't need to talk to you but I bet he'll be proud to share information as he works. Just watching him work will teach you what you are trying to accomplish.

The amp rating means that the machine can produce up to that much current for welding. One of the few adjustments on a welder is the current. If you use too much current (heat) it will burn through the metal. Too little and it won't melt the metal enough to make a puddle. The higher the amp ability of the machine the thicker it can weld and the more capable it is. A 220 volt welder will almost always be capable of producing more amps than a 110 volt model.

MIG is a wirefeed welder using gas, you can skip the gas and have a plain wirefeed if you use special wire that has flux inside the wire which makes a gas when it burns.

PBinWA · May 10, 2006

( One question I have is what do the amps ratings mean? For instance a guy just posted a 170 amp mig 220v single phase welder with a 90 cubic foot argon tank for $200 on CraigsList.

Another question is are wire feed welders mig welders are the terms interchangeable, that's sort of the vibe I'm getting
)

In general wire feed and mig are often used interchangeably. You can get a gasless wirefeed welder that doesn't really count as a mig (no gas).

A rough generalization is that the higher the amps that the welder is capable of then the thicker the metal that it can handle in a single pass. Essentially it gives you higher penetration. You can get more amps with AC but the welds will be rougher (more splatter and harder to control). In general an AC/DC welder will be rated higher amps for AC than DC.

The entry level Hobart and Miller AC/DC arc welders are pretty nice and are essentally the same unit (Miller owns Hobart). You can sometimes get Hobart welders on sale at Coastal Farm Stores. There are lots of smaller welding supply stores in the Portland area they all carry Miller stuff.

I saw the welder you just saw on Craigslist and it is pretty much a "no-name" brand. I'd avoid it unless you want to take a risk. Actually the tank alone might be worth the purchase as it was a big tank (I can't remember if the tank was included).

Doh Highbeam beat me! Highbeam get back to work! Stop surfing TBN during business hours /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

mschuck · May 11, 2006

This is actually our second baby, the first is 3 already and he's growing up fast, and yes you definitely have to slow down and take the time to play with them. Basically I figure I've 6 or so more weeks of doing projects on my land and then I'm done with anything major that requires daylight for the rest of the summer.

Well that mig welder on CL is gone but no big loss something else will come along.

Last night I fired up my O/A torch just to try it out and practice a little. After a while I put on the cutting tip and tried cutting a 1/8 in piece of flat bar and boy did I make a mess of it. I don't think I had the flame adjusted right or something. Well when I got done I realized I'd put a couple of quarter sized divots in the concrete of my shop floor, guess I'd better get some fire bricks and build a table.

Turns out Quimby welding supply is like 4 blocks from my office so I walked down there at lunch today, they didn't have fire bricks but I picked some gloves and filler rods and looked around at all the stuff I'm going to buy someday /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PBinWA · May 11, 2006

( Turns out Quimby welding supply is like 4 blocks from my office so I walked down there at lunch today, they didn't have fire bricks but I picked some gloves and filler rods and looked around at all the stuff I'm going to buy someday /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
)

Their eBay store is run seperately from their store front. The prices on eBay are usually cheaper than what they at the store. You still pick everything up at the store but they won't sell stuff through the storefront at their eBay pricing (I tried).

I hear you on the concrete floor. Seems concrete doesn't like heavy metal stuff falling on it either./forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

PB

Farwell · May 11, 2006

Chuck,
Be careful of those divots in concrete, when they happen they can have the power of a bullet, depending on the moisture stored in the concrete. Don't ask how I know.
Farwell

mschuck · May 11, 2006

Ya, I just found this on the web.

"If possible, work to be welded should be placed on a firebrick surface at a comfortable height. Welding should never be done directly on a concrete floor. Heat from the arc can cause steam to build-up in the floor which could cause an explosion. "

Berniep · May 12, 2006

The first thing I did when I bought my little Hobart handler 180 mig welder was build a metal welding table. I can ground to the table and most things will ground just by setting on or clamping to the table. I can spot weld parts to the table to keep them in position then break the spot weld with a hammer to release them, then just grind the spots back down to smooth the surface again.
My recomendation since I haven't seen anyone mention it yet(maybe you have I just missed it) Get lots of clamps, all different kinds. "C" clamps, "C" clamp vice grips, pipe clamps, regular vise grips, pretty much anything heat resitant. Nothing worse than trying to hold one part steady with your elbow and the other part with your other hand and trying to start an arc at the same time. If you are like me you will only have to break it apart about three times before you get it stuck right.

dfkrug · May 12, 2006

The DC 220V stick welders allow much easier arc
starting and less spatter. Only issue is the welder costs
more than AC-only. I have a Hobart Ironman 210 MIG,
which I use with Ar/CO2 and Ar gases. It works great
but 3/8 steel is about the one-pass limit. I use the Miller
buzz box on 1/2" steel, starting with 6013 rod and finishing
with 7018 rod on critical welds. I see buzz-boxes all the
time on Craigs List around here. Cheap.

PBinWA · May 12, 2006

Ditton on the clamps. I also like the magnetic "stubby arrow" style clamps too. They are cheap at Harbor Freight. Harbor Freight is a good place to stock up on clamps and other little accessories.

PB

Highbeam · May 13, 2006

I love harbor freight. My water heater has two of those magnetic arrows stuck on it too. Problem with magnets around metal working is that they pick up all the grindings. I used the big jaw vise grips on this last project and they are fantastic.

"Well when I got done I realized I'd put a couple of quarter sized divots in the concrete of my shop floor"

Bah, my first Oxy/acet cutting job left me with some big gouges in the floor too. You'd think I would have learned after using a plasma cutter to cut circles out of 3/16" plate- I now have two circles burnt into the floor. I haven't had the floor pop at me but I don't like the damage.

lynxpilot · May 21, 2006

For a beginning welder, I highly recommend this book:
Welder's Handbook by Richard Finch

It discusses all of the major types of welding and is extremely helpful for a new welder trying to make an equipment decision.

Don't think your oxy/acetylene rig is useless. If you can master it, you can master any style of welding. You can also perform just about any welding task with oxy/acetylene with the proper knowlege and tools. I'd put my oxy/acet welds against most people's TIG welds any day. You can also fit it for a cutter (for ferrous metals).

MIG is easy to get a half-decent looking weld but just about as easy to get a bad weld that looks good. It's great for production welding, but you really need to know what shield gas to use, what mode (short circuit or spray), what wire, etc. For non-critical welds, body work, etc. it's really good. Great for sheet metal. There are some really cool MIG machines out there that just about make all the other types obsolete, but they're expensive. If you use MIG, don't forget to figure in the cost of your shielding gas and bottle. If you use wire feed (flux core), don't forget to figure in the added cost of the wire itself.

TIG is great for fine work. Cleanliness and fit-up are paramount. It's also sort of difficult to master. It has a limited scope of use and is usually not appropriate for the average home welder. Unbeatable for critical pipe welds for high pressure systems.

Stick is probably about the most useful and convenient for the average home user or farmer. It takes a lot of practice to master, but is relatively easy and inexpensive to practice. Machines are usually relatively inexpensive. When you figure in gas for oxy/acet welding, stick is probably cheaper even with a really nice machine. I'd make sure with a stick machine, that I had DC.

I'd say read the book (or an equivalent book) and make an informed decision before you spent the big bucks. Don't be afraid to talk to someone who welds for a living either.

Good luck!

lynxpilot · May 21, 2006

For a beginning welder, I highly recommend this book:
Welder's Handbook by Richard Finch

It discusses all of the major types of welding and is extremely helpful for a new welder trying to make an equipment decision.

Don't think your oxy/acetylene rig is useless. If you can master it, you can master any style of welding. You can also perform just about any welding task with oxy/acetylene with the proper knowlege and tools. I'd put my oxy/acet welds against most people's TIG welds any day. You can also fit it for a cutter (for ferrous metals).

MIG is easy to get a half-decent looking weld but just about as easy to get a bad weld that looks good. It's great for production welding, but you really need to know what shield gas to use, what mode (short circuit or spray), what wire, etc. For non-critical welds, body work, etc. it's really good. Great for sheet metal. There are some really cool MIG machines out there that just about make all the other types obsolete, but they're expensive. If you use MIG, don't forget to figure in the cost of your shielding gas and bottle. If you use wire feed (flux core), don't forget to figure in the added cost of the wire itself.

TIG is great for fine work. Cleanliness and fit-up are paramount. It's also sort of difficult to master. It has a limited scope of use and is usually not appropriate for the average home welder. Unbeatable for critical pipe welds for high pressure systems.

Stick is probably about the most useful and convenient for the average home user or farmer. It takes a lot of practice to master, but is relatively easy and inexpensive to practice. Machines are usually relatively inexpensive. When you figure in gas for oxy/acet welding, stick is probably cheaper even with a really nice machine. I'd make sure with a stick machine, that I had DC.

I'd say read the book (or an equivalent book) and make an informed decision before you spent the big bucks. Don't be afraid to talk to someone who welds for a living either.

Good luck!