LK3054 Alternator

[Jimmyb33]

I've had my tractor a little over a year and the more I look at it the more things I find that the previous owner jacked up! When I bought it, the guy told me "I don't think the alternator is working right.... the light stays on on the dash and I sometimes have to charge the battery if it's set up for a while..." Well, since I've had it, I've only had to chagre the battery twice. The second time I realized the battery was dry as a bone. I filled it up, gave it a charge and haven't had a problem since. So, i'm prettty sure the alternator is working correctly, but I'd like to see if I can get the light to go off on the dash. I tried to make some since of the shop manual wireing diagrams, but I'm pretty lost there. It does look to me that there should be 3 or 4 wires coming off the alternator. I have 2. See the pictures below... the wire with the push on connector is runing to the black box on the firewall (regulator?). the other wire (nut on connector) is running into a bundle of wires covered with elecrtictal tape. I've got to sort those out when I get time. Can anyone tell me what wires are missing and where these two are supposed to go? Ultamately I'd like to have this all corrected and all the wires running in shrink tubing or something better than electrical tape!!!

Thanks!

jb

 

[IXLR8]

This is a guess, but I believe the nut labeled 'B' (for Battery) will go to- the fusible link in the schematic then on to the battery, and to the 'B' on the ignition switch. The push on connector below it, this should be the 'F' connection, which is the field, which excites the alternator and controls its output. The 'F' is not labeled on the schematic, it is the lead that goes from the regulator to the single coil in the alternator. In your schematic it is on the left side of the alternator. The 3 coils that are connected together are the actual alternator output coils. From the schematic, it looks like the regulator has a relay that drives the 'Charge Lamp', it looks like there are two relays in the regulator, my guess is the one for the 'CL' is not working if the alternator is indeed putting out. What is the voltage on the battery when the tractor is running above 1500rpm. If the alternator is working, it should be between 14.0-14.5 volts. Anything less then 13.0 and you have a problem somewhere. Keep in mind that the schematic shows the ground wire connections when actually it is the tractor frame, engine block and alternator mounting bracket making the connections, not separate wires.

HTH

 

[Jimmyb33]

Thanks for the reply IXLR8... Your description makes it a bit clearer for me. I'll have to dig out my multimeter over the weekend and check the voltage. I'll report back.

jb

 

[IXLR8]

JB- After studying your photo and schematic... I think you maybe missing a wire. The schematic shows 4 wires coming off the alternator, you have 3. You have "B" as the output lead to the battery. You have "F" as the lead to the Field to control the output. You have "E" the alternator frame itself as the ground/earth connection. But it looks like you should have another lead going back to the regulator, I believe that would be the "N" connection. Do you have all 6 wires coming out of the connector for the regulator? If you do... then I suspect that one of them goes nowhere and it should go back to the alternator. My CK30 has the regulator built in, not separate like your is, but according to the schematic I have 4 wires. On mine, the 4th wire goes directly to the dash charging light, where yours goes to the regulator and it in turn controls the dash light.
HTH

 

[kentrodngun]

Jimmy, I will look at my machine when I get a chance (close by but I've been sick). In the meantime attached is the Electrical diagram from my engine manual - it differs from the LK3054 Owner's Manual Electrical diagram, but perhaps it's better.

 

[IXLR8]

Jimmy, I will look at my machine when I get a chance (close by but I've been sick). In the meantime attached is the Electrical diagram from my engine manual - it differs from the LK3054 Owner's Manual Electrical diagram, but perhaps it's better.

Your diagram is the same as my CK30, it looks like the regulator is internal to the alternator, JB's is external. Where are all the service techs when you need one?

 

[Jimmyb33]

Thanks guys for your replys... and thanks kentrodngun for the diagram. I'm stil trying to figure all this out. I got out there this evening with my multimeter and camera phone... I checked the voltage at the battery before cranking the eninge and after... It was 12.34v each time. Checked again at about 1500 rpm and still 12.34v. I checked the "B" connections on the back of the alternator ang got the same. So it looks like maybe the alternator is not working correctly right? One thing I havent tried yet..(just thought of it) is to remove the positive battery cable after it's started and check the voltage on the alternator...

Here's a couple of pictures of the regulator (I think?) front and back. The wire from the "F" on the alternator is connected to the "FIELD" side of the regulator... There is no other wires connected to the regulator though... That doesn't seem right to me at all! What's the silver box with all the wires connected to it?

Thanks again for all y'all's help!!

jb

 

[IXLR8]

JB- Based on what you have said so far, there is no output from your alternator. I suspect after looking at your last pictures, that there is no input to the Field wire to the alternator. Next time you run the tractor, see if there is any voltage going to the "F" connector on the alternator, I suspect it will be zero. If so... that is where we need to start. I am guessing, based on mounting and wiring connector (ring lug), that what you have labeled as "Regulator?" is an aftermarket addon regulator. I suspect it is missing some wires and that is part of your problem. My guess, based on the wiring connector (6 pin molex) and the mounting, is that what you have labeled "What's this?" is the original regulator. It is still connected to part of the system, which is why you have the alt light on the dash, but no longer connected to the Field of the alternator and that is why there is no alternator output. If you notice, things that look original, are mounted to bumps stamped in the sheet metal, the suspected aftermarket item is bolted to flat sheet metal.
I hate to say say this... but at this point... I would trace out all the wires from the item you have labeled "what's this?" This would verify that it is indeed the 'old' regulator, we can see what goes where and what needs to be corrected. This is not going to be a fun task, but it is necessary before we put in a new regulator (which is what i suspect you need) and possibly blow it up, lets try and avoid that. After looking at all your posts again, it might be possible that your alternator is not the original one either... that is really going to muck up the troubleshooting.
It would be really good if some of the other 3054 owners would chime in and let us know what they have.

 

[Jimmyb33]

Thanks again or the input IXLR8.... It is all strating to make some sinse... The black "regulator" is only held on with the one screw on top. It's a "self tapping" sheet metal screw. That thing's been flopping around up there til I added some washer to it to help it tighten up. So it's very likely that "regulator" is doing nothing but looking ugly.?... I'll check the voltage on the "F" connection next time I crank it up. And I will start tracing out the wires on the "original regulator" and see where they are going.

So it is likely that the alternotor doesn't work at all and that I am running only on battery power. All other things electrical seem to work... headlights, flashers, dash lights... but I only turn them on for fun once in a while... I hardly ever work after dusk... so those things aren't really draining the battery.

There are a couple of other "funny" things on this tractor that I am finding but will get into those later.

So now it looks like I might be getting to a point where I can spend some $$ and get all this working right, or have the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude and just keep putting the battery on the charger every couple of months....


jb

 

[IXLR8]

I am afraid you are probably running on battery only, which once the tractor is started, is about all you need with a diesel. I would put the battery on a charge on a regular basis, once per month depending on usage, to keep it charged and have it last longer. Part of me goes with your 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality. But I would get tired of having to charge the battery, here in the north the battery would not last long with cold winter starts. Someday you might want to run at night, have some lights or something extra. I suspect if you could just get some way to properly control some power to your "Field" connection that the alternator would have some output. I am fairly sure the 'regulator' is doing nothing but looking ugly at the moment. If you put battery voltage on the other terminal, "Ign" then you might have an output on the "FLD" terminal and the alternator might then function. You are taking a chance in toasting the alternator if you do that... although it might already be dead. Is there any chance you can get the cover off of the "regulator" and post a few pictures of the insides? Let's see what the insides of the "regulator" look like before we try any more troubleshooting.
You mentioned in one post about disconnecting the battery after the tractor is running. In general that is not a good idea, alternators depend on having a load to dump their power into. It is possible to fry an alternator if you pull the battery when the engine is running, although in your case with no Field to excite the alternator, it probably would not be an issue.

 

[JoelD]

There is an alternator on ebay, not sure, but may fit?

 

[Jimmyb33]

Thanks JoelD. I hadn't seen that til I saw your post. That one looks much newer than mine and the black plastic covor on the back makes me think it may have the regulator incorporated into the alternator assembly... anyone recogonize that alternator as one with the regulator built in??? (just search kioti in eaby and it will pop up) Now I'd have to wonder if I could get that one working correctly with my older model tractor set-up...

I'm not 100% sure my current alternator is not working yet... From reading what IXLR8 has said (as well as some other threads on the "parts/repairs" forum) unless I'm geting power to the "field" connection, the alternator will not output any power to charge the battery or run any other electronics.

I've got a couple of options to work with here. IXLR8, I will get the cover off the "regulator" and post some pics next chance I get. I'm also going to trace the wires from the "original regulator" and maybe even find the wire that was supposed to go to the "field" on the alternator and test it for voltage. (you never know... it might still be hot!) If I get nowhere with that, I've found a shop close by that rebuilds alternators and starters. I can take mine to them and get them to check it out. If they determine it's bad, then I can start looking for a replacement.

I'm a cheap *****!! I'll duck-tape it together as long as I can!! I do appreciate you posting the ebay option Joel! That would be one of the first places I'd look for a replacement. Anyone know what a new LK3054 alternator would cost? ...just in case I decide to go that route? (not very likely )

jb

 

[kentrodngun]

Jimmy, have recovered sufficiently enough to look at my machine. It's over at my gun club as I was using the FEL to load sand into the backstops. I plan to shoot tomorrow and will bring the digital to see if I can take some pictures for you. I will also see if I can get numbers off the regulator & alternator.
Hang loose, John

 

[Jimmyb33]

Thanks John,
If the weather settles down here this evening I'll try to get some pics of the inside of the regulator up here for inspection.

JB

 

[Jimmyb33]

ok.. I was able to get some pics of the "regulator". I also was trying to trace the lines out of the original regulator... didn't take long for me to realize that I'm not too good with electrical stuff. I tried to do connectivity test on some of the wires out of the regulator and kept getting "everything is connected to everything" else results. I was able to check for voltage on the original regulator. The electrical diagram attached shows the I get 12v out of the blue and red wires when the key is turned on. I don't get any voltage out of any other connections at the regulator.

There is no voltage on the "field" connection on the alternator.

I hope you guys can make some since out of this.

jb

 

[IXLR8]

Jimmy,

ok.. I was able to get some pics of the "regulator". I also was trying to trace the lines out of the original regulator... didn't take long for me to realize that I'm not too good with electrical stuff.

Just because you couldn't trace some wires in a bundle in impossible to get at places... doesn't mean you are not too good with electrical stuff. You have made more progress here than lots of folks I know would have.

I tried to do connectivity test on some of the wires out of the regulator and kept getting "everything is connected to everything" else results.

This is not surprising, especially if you had the ohm meter on something higher than the minimum scale. The original regulator is solid state and everything connected to everything is sort of expected. If your meter had a diode setting, that is the only one that would have any meaning.

I was able to check for voltage on the original regulator. The electrical diagram attached shows the I get 12v out of the blue and red wires when the key is turned on. I don't get any voltage out of any other connections at the regulator.

Did you put the voltage readings on the schematic you posted, along with the wire colors? I spent some time tracing the wires in the schematic... either the color coding is wrong, the schematic is wrong, or the wires change color between pt A and pt B. Makes it difficult to sort out.

There is no voltage on the "field" connection on the alternator.

I didn't think there would be, thanks for verifying this.

Thanks for the pictures of the regulator insides. It tells me the unit is in good shape, the contacts look good, no sign of corrosion or pitting. When you put the cover back on, make sure it is tight the gasket is sealed well. I would also gently clean up the back side where the two wire wound resistors are.

I think the 12v readings you got on the Original Regulator are the battery input, red wire, and the field output, blue wire. I suspect the yellow wire goes to the alternator warning light on the dash, so I am a little surprised you didn't have 12v there as well. Although, the blue wire could be the lamp with the yellow for the field. Is there any sign of cut wires around the alternator, if so, what color are they? I would be looking for a blue or yellow wire. Is there a connector tucked away somewhere nearby? Since we don't know were these wires go.. I suggest we don't mess with this regulator, yet.

Now the question is... How lucky do you feel??
If it was me... at this point I would get:
- A friend for another set of hands who is comfortable with electricity, running motors and reading meters.
- A second volt meter.
- A length of thin wire, 24 gauge or smaller, to get from the battery to the IGN connection on the "new" Regulator. Remember, a 28 gauge wire is smaller, and for this test better, than a 24 gauge wire. The safest would be to get a small fuse, 2 amp or so, and put that in series with this wire, as close to the battery as you can. Most folks don't have a fuse holder laying around and I wouldn't bother making a trip to Radio Shack or similar place just to get one.

I would:
- Put one meter across the battery to monitor its voltage.
- Put the other meter from the "Field" connection on the alternator to ground. This would be to monitor if any voltage is getting to the alternator.
- Connect one end of the length of wire to the + side of the battery. On the end of the wire that is free, strip off very little of the insulation. This is to minimize the change of the battery being shorted to ground. This is why I suggested a small wire, if it does get shorted, the wire will act as a fuse. The worse that will happen is the wire gets hot where you are holding it. Remember to keep this wire away from ANYTHING on the motor that might move. Tape or ty-raps are your friend here.
- Start the tractor, bring engine RPM to 1400 or so, no need for anything higher. Monitor voltage at battery and at "Field" connection on the alternator. Take the wire and touch it to the IGN connection on the regulator. Just touch it for a second or two.. just enough to see if you get any voltage at the "Field" connection on the alternator. Be aware, if things are working correctly, there is a good chance there will be some sparks when you touch your wire to the IGN terminal, this will actually be a good sign. If you do get voltage at the field connection, then I would try again, slightly longer, and see if the voltage increased on the battery. You might also hear a slight change in the tone of the engine if the alternator does put out voltage as it will be trying to charge the battery.

If you have ANY questions about this procedure... post them before you start.

Good luck.. let us know the results.

 

[Jimmyb33]

Wow!
First, Thanks for your help and encourgement with this little project of mine. I deffinately would not have gotten this far with out it!

One the schematic, I did add the wire colors (and voltage of the red and blue) for the wires leaving the original regulator. Some of the wires do change color at that first connection. (green goes to white, blue to white/green, yellow to white/blue) and there are many splices and dead end wires down near the starter. tracing these would be a nightmare!

As for testing the new regulator out. I'm feeling pretty lucky!!
I really don't see where I have much to loose... I'll see what I can dig up over the weekend and give it a shot. My neighbor is an industrial electrican so he should have an extra meter and maybe a fuse holder for us to use...(but he's a kubota owner ) I had actually thought about doing something like what you suggested, but hadn't thought it out completely.

Thanks agan four the support! That's what makes this such a great forum!
I'll report back with some results soon!!

jb

 

[kentrodngun]

OK finally got to look at the machine so here's the info:
Alternator data off tag: AG1350A 12v 35 amp
"Tractor 15321-K6401-2"
My meter at the battery reads 14.8 volts while running.

I've attached some pictures for you of the regulator & alternator and also some crude drawings of the wiring harnesses. Hope it helps. Keep us posted.

John

Caught an error in my diagram - terminal F should be white wire with green stripe

 

[Jimmyb33]

Thanks John!
Those pictures and the diagram really give me something to work with. My wires from the regulator is very close to yours. I'll have to print all these out and see if I can make some sense of it. This really helps!!

After further review, I get...

white/green goes to "F" field
Black goes to "N"
white (or maybe white/blue) goes to "E"

right now i have 12v on white/green and white/red.....
I'm going to check these again to make sure
I got them right...




jb

 

[JoelD]

The wrist bone is connected to the hand bone the hand bone is connected to the finger bone the finger bone is ....ahh..stuck in my nose bone.

I couldn't help my self.

I've also got the LK3054XS, I've got the service manual, let me know if there is anything I can help with. Based on the prior posts these guys know a whole lot more than me.

Good luck,
Joel