kubota vs. kioti

[GManBart]

The "foot" in foot-pounds is not movement. The "foot" is the length of the moment arm that the torque is acting on. A torque of 1 foot-pound is 1 pound of force produced on a moment arm of 1 foot.
Work is force times distance moved. Power is the rate that you are performing work. The RPM does in


fact give you the distance component of the horsepower calculation in the form of angular motion. I wish some people would quit trying to pretend to be engineers, it is rather annoying to those of us that do hold engineering degrees, and spent many hours studying the fundamentals of physics.

You misread what I wrote. I never said the RPM doesn't give you the distance component of horsepower. I said the RPM doesn't provide the distance (arm) to the force (torque).

I can't speak for anybody else, but I would never pretend to be an engineer. I've actually kissed women before :thumbsup:

 

[nc redneck]

Wow. I own JD, Kubota and Kioti. I think Kioti is by far the best when comparing price to abilities.

 

[SPYDERLK]

The "foot" in foot-pounds is not movement. The "foot" is the length of the moment arm that the torque is acting on. A torque of 1 foot-pound is 1 pound of force produced on a moment arm of 1 foot.
Work is force times distance moved. Power is the rate that you are performing work. The RPM does in


fact give you the distance component of the horsepower calculation in the form of angular motion. I wish some people would quit trying to pretend to be engineers, it is rather annoying to those of us that do hold engineering degrees, and spent many hours studying the fundamentals of physics.

:drink:

 

[LD1]

Correct. I said torque at the engine is irrelevant. We are talking tractor engines here and comparing them. I have no idea what the torque is at the engine? And I bet 99%+ of the members here don't either. It isn't a commonly published spec. I would also be willing to bet that 99%+ DO know what their HP is though. So if engine torque was important as you claim, why doesn't anyone else care?

 

[arlen4720]

Correct. I said torque at the engine is irrelevant. We are talking tractor engines here and comparing them. I have no idea what the torque is at the engine? And I bet 99%+ of the members here don't either. It isn't a commonly published spec. I would also be willing to bet that 99%+ DO know what their HP is though. So if engine torque was important as you claim, why doesn't anyone else care?

I'm more concerned with the shape of the torque curve, not the peak torque.

 

[arlen4720]

Wrong again. We're talking about a car/truck/tractor engine and "torque" is the force (the ONLY force) in the horsepower equation. In the U.S. we talk about foot pounds or pound/feet of torque, multiply that by RPM, divide it by 5252 and we get horsepower. The RPM doesn't provide the distance factor to the force, the "feet" part of lb/ft does.

Since we're talking about engines, and not horses, if you don't have rpm or torque, you can't have horsepower. You can measure torque. You can measure rpm. You can't measure horsepower, because it's a derived from the two actual factors in play.

Your horse analogy is beyond poor. Go look up how Watts calculated what "1hp" is. In fact, he started with ponies as I recall.

Ft-lbs is not a measurement of force. lbs are. Or Newtons. Ft-lbs (or Netwon Meters)are a measurement of torque, it is not the same as simple force.
If you run all your calculations with SI units, and attach the units, and carry them through all your calculations it will all make sense.

 

[TomSeller]

I have not read all the back and forth, but I like to think of an electric motor with a locked rotor (stalled) as outputting torque but no HP since it is doing no work (no RPMs). Once rotating it is doing work and is outputting HP along with torque.

I don't explain with a piston engine because at "locked crank" they die and output no torque or HP.

 

[arlen4720]

I have not read all the back and forth, but I like to think of an electric motor with a locked rotor (stalled) as outputting torque but no HP since it is doing no work (no RPMs). Once rotating it is doing work and is outputting HP along with torque.

I don't explain with a piston engine because at "locked crank" they die and output no torque or HP.

yes, in fact an electric motor puts out maximum torque at locked rotor...until it burns up. You have to remember that the power plant is doing plenty of work when the motor is stalled though. And while no rotary work is being done, plenty of power is being dissipated in heat. You can look at it like a mechanical clutch slipping between the power plant and the motor. If you like mechanical analogies.

 

[TomSeller]

yes, in fact an electric motor puts out maximum torque at locked rotor...until it burns up. You have to remember that the power plant is doing plenty of work when the motor is stalled though. And while no rotary work is being done, plenty of power is being dissipated in heat. You can look at it like a mechanical clutch slipping between the power plant and the motor. If you like mechanical analogies.

I can generate heat and use energy while outputting no work with my legs and arms. Two different things.

 

[farm88]

I've had the opportunity to own both a kubota L3200, and a kioti ck35 recently. I've got to say that the Kioti is much more a better machine to me than the same priced kubota. There is just no comparison. The Kioti is like a tank compared to the kubota a toy. The Kioti brings so much more tractor to the table. The Kubota has a defective 3pt. lift, the Kioti works right.
I can only share first impressions, but very impressed with the ck35.

You should have looked at a Mahindra. You would have had a tractor your naybors would be gelous of then.

 

[LD1]

I'm more concerned with the shape of the torque curve, not the peak torque.

But by looking at a torque curve, you are basically looking at a HP curve. Since you are looking at torque over rpm.

So would it not be the same to say you could only be concerned with the shape of the HP curve instead of the peak HP?

 

[farm88]

But by looking at a torque curve, you are basically looking at a HP curve. Since you are looking at torque over rpm.

So would it not be the same to say you could only be concerned with the shape of the HP curve instead of the peak HP?

I'd rather look at a curvy woman.

 

[TomSeller]

I'd rather look at a curvy woman.

Me too. Where is Farmgirl and her pictures when we need her?

 

[MinnesotaEric]

A bug sits on a 16" radius log at the 12 o'clock position rolling at 13.5 mph down a 45 degree incline.

What is the revolutions per minute of the log?

How long before the bug gets squished?

What is the motion of the log called?

How do you believe pages of hp and torque discussion relates to comparing Kioti and Kubota tractors?

What marque of tractor paint fades the fastest when left out of doors?

 

[LD1]

141.8 rpm.

And how long till the bug gets squished depends on how fast the big can run and/or if it can fly away.

Mahindra paint fades fastest. JD the slowest caust it cost the most.

And this has nothing at all to do with kioti vs Kubota. I made a comment to the effect of " HP is more important than torque when comparing tractors" and a few members disagreed and some agreed. But for the most part, I think it has been a good discussion. I don't think that anyone participating in the discussion will learn anything we don't already know, but hopefully others will gain some knowledge. If not, at least they can get a little humor.

 

[sd455dan]

Correct. I said torque at the engine is irrelevant. We are talking tractor engines here and comparing them. I would also be willing to bet that 99%+ DO know what their HP is though.




Most tractor owners do know the horsepower rating

Unfortunately they may only Know the gross horsepower or the pto horsepower@ rated speed,

What is missing is an understanding that some tractors do not produce good low/mid speed torque #s - which Directly affects the horsepower produced at all those engine speeds below the (rated) speed.

A virtual full speed Horsepower rating - which in many cases is turning close to 3400 rpm on a new small displacement engine is not as capable under varied real world rpm running speeds as some larger displacement/ lower revving engines with identical (rated) horsepower #s

This is because most of the larger engines produce Much more torque at low rpms- this equates to more real and usable horsepower at those low and mid speeds compared to small displacement high revving engines.
Even though they have Identical pto horsepower ratings at each engines rated speed.

That is why torque IS important - especially at lower rpms where the torque #s are not published on many of these new machines...

As stated else where- peak torque is of less concern than the torque curve or the torque average from above idle to rated speed... Either the torque curve or the torque average (rpm to rpm) would be very helpful and a useful tool in making an informed decision between 2 engines with similar Horsepower ratings.

In the past tractor companies were proud to display the dyno charts with horsepower and torque from slightly above idle to full engine speed.
This allowed a perspective buyer to get a good idea of How the engine will act at all engine speeds-it does not seem nearly as common today for the dyno charts to be posted JMO and my:2cents:

 

[tomato coupe]

I'm betting there aren't too many physicists reading this thread. There is at least one, however, as I am one.

This thread has me laughing and crying at the same time. I think a few of you guys are trying to say the same thing, but there is some kind of impedance mismatch preventing you from agreeing on the details, i.e. you're really just arguing over semantics.

There have been a lot of incorrect statements about power / torque / force / work / energy and the relationship between these units. It would take hours for me to write a post addressing them all but, if you want to ask specific questions about the physics, I will try to give simple concise answers. On the other hand, I won't take offense if you tell me to buzz off.

Cheers

 

[TomSeller]

I had a bug once, not much HP or torque but I did squish it rolling down a hill.

 

[LD1]

That is why torque IS important - especially at lower rpms where the torque #s are not published on many of these new machines...

As stated else where- peak torque is of less concern than the torque curve or the torque average from above idle to rated speed... Either the torque curve or the torque average (rpm to rpm) would be very helpful and a useful tool in making an informed decision between 2 engines with similar Horsepower ratings.

In the past tractor companies were proud to display the dyno charts with horsepower and torque from slightly above idle to full engine speed.
This allowed a perspective buyer to get a good idea of How the engine will act at all engine speeds-it does not seem nearly as common today for the dyno charts to be posted JMO and my:2cents:

Yes, I agree seeing a full torque curve would be nice. But in reality, most of the tractors today, in a given size class, have similar Rpms. Say, comparing a l3400, a jd3520, a dk35, ck35, l3540, and about any other 35hp tractor, I am betting their peak rpm is in the 2900 rpm range. Give or take 100rpm. Its not like one mfg is spinning up to 3600-4000 rpm just to boost a HP number. And likely all of them would have similar torque curves. And pretty much the same in different size classes.

And when you mention low rpm torque... since you are talking torque @ rpm, you are talking Bout HP as well. They go hand in hand.

In racing, we always refer to it as "area under the curve". More area under the curve is better. If you have more area under the torque curve, you will have more area under the HP curve.

 

[paulfun9]

Yep this!
I think we are all close to agreeing but due to past experience with other people we have put each other into a corner or stereotype of those who have no real world experience like the kids who add a big muffler to their car and think its faster and more powerful in every aspect now!