Kubota vs. Deere

[18KwPower]

That's a really good price... What about Ballast/Weights, and chains (Necessary in winter). Was it for Lug tires? Lug tires aren't really that much cheaper than turf, and if you have lots of hills/slopes are a must. They don't tear up your grass either...

-Dave

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Just got quotes for the 2305 with loader and 54" deck,$13,700. The Kubota BX2230 with loader and 60" deck was $12,200.Why would I pay an extra $1500 for the 2305?I have owned Deeres most of my life,but the price difference looks to be pushing me to Kubota.Do you see any benefit of buying the Deere? )</font>

 

[18KwPower]

I thought this too when I first tested the Kubota BX2230 out, but then after I used it for awhile, the loader controls seemed comfortable, and so did the HST pedal. Now, neither seem unconfortable. Though it is a bit of a pinch to get on the tractor (BX2230) from the right hand side... Wish there was a way to move the loader control out of the way until you want to use it.

-Dave

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Test Drive both units with the loaders on and see which you like best. I did that a Kubota BX2230 verses a JD 2210. The loader controls on the Kubota were to far forward and high for my personal liking. The rocking HST pedal and brake location were a concern in a pinch and uncomfortable also , Once again My own oppinion.Both are nice units. I paid $12700.00 out the door with CX200 and 54" deck, weight box and extra work lights, and R4s. a month ago.


Jim )</font>

 

[Lobo56]

The comment regarding the 3-point arms being significantly longer on the 2210 then the BX2230 is true. I just purchased a used model 854 PTO driven Trac Vac. The previous owner had it on a BX2230. When I tried to mount it on my 2210 the drive shaft was 3” or more short, the two ends of the drive shaft pulled apart in the middle. I then noticed that the previous owner had cut some of the drive shaft to fit he’s BX2230. After spending $89.00 for a new drive shaft which is almost 4” longer then the old one. I would think the 3PT. arms on a BX2230 are at least 2”-3” shorter then the 2210.

 

[johndeere_2210]

Dave,

I'm aware of the adjustments to move the arms apart on the BX as well as the Deere, but my comment was more directed at how wide the arms spread apart couple with ease; that is, the draft bar which goes between the arms on a 2210 or 2305 is a standard 28" and it does make hooking things up a bit easier, because on the same bushhog at my home, I use to reverse the pins (pointing inside) to hook up the same piece of equipment on the BX and that's not to imply it couldn't use it, but 28-30" spread is pushing the arms way out there.

I do agree, the turning radius is much nicer on the BX.

 

[18KwPower]

I'll check myBX tonight... Im sure the hitch bar I have between the 2pt is a full Cat1 width. It looks the same width as what I have on my 9N. Anyhow, I'll measure just to be certain.

It didn't seem difficult to hook up.... though I did tighten the linkage components so it didn't flop around.

I do like how on the BX2230 I could hook the 2pt arms so that they stay a fixed height.

Mowing my almost 2acres I finish almost 20min faster than I was getting it done with the JD445, and I about half the fuel. Just having a Diesel over a gas was worth it.

Doesn't matter what kind of tractor you get in the long run, the diesel engine will be more fuel efficient, and last longer than a gas.


-Dave

 

[jeepers94]

Well,it turns out the 2305 doesn't qualify for a rebate.There is a $1000 rebate on the 4010,but none on the 2305.I just made the deal for the Kubota 2230 with fel,60"mmm,grill guard and rear ballast for $11,900 including taxes and $$500 rebate,36 months 0% interest.I also was interested in the MF 2300 but the dealer in my area wanted $15000.Thats $1000 more than the Deere.

 

[18KwPower]

Okay... Kubota does have some deception... The BX2230 spec says it has a 22hp (see http://www.kubota.com/f/products/bx1830-2230_specs.pdf )

But, stamped on my BX2230 engine it says it is an 18.5Kw enigne (24.8hp).

Needless to say, its nice to get an instant reward. I went looking around on the tractor after I cut down a large (~80ft tree and pulled it off to my brush firewood pile some 2000lbs + sections with only about 1/3 throttle. I expected to have to run it at a higher speed or at least to lug the motor some. It just kept running smooth the whole time.

-Dave

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Okay, I jumped in because a Kubota/New Holland salesman stated in a JD Forum that he thought JD's literature was deceptive to consumers--a very strong statement, indeed. Now I learn that all tractor manufacturers except Kubota are deceiving customers if that standard holds water. Where are we with that allegation? ...and does anyone actually have the comparable numbers--center bucket. 500 MM, pivot pin, breakout force, whatever--since Kubota is forthright enought to provide all measurement points, including possibly the same point as is used by JD for the 210 or 200CX. Why doesn't Kubota make those spec statements on their Website and which literature are you guys talking about? Kubota sell-in or tech literature? Just curious and still a little befuddled about the reason for the sniping when there are still no facts offered /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. )</font>

 

[Lobo56]

You’re talking about width between the lift arms at full spread, were talking about overall total length of the lift arms. If you were to attach two identical implement one to a 2210 and the other one to the BX2230, the 2210 will lift it higher off the ground, because of the lift arm length. The BX2230 defiantly has shorter lift arms. Not that the 2210 has anything to brag about on lift height, but it lifts higher then the BX2230.

 

[18KwPower]

That's correct. The BX2230 lift arms are definitely shorter than the Deere 3305/2210. They do open up full width for 32" Cat1 bar's/implements between the 2pt.

How high you lift something doesn't seem to be a big hinderance unless you have something that requires alot of ground clearance when in the up position.

-Dave

 

[bigpete]

Thanks, Bob. JD does provide both pivot pin specs and a spec at 550 mm forward of the pivot pin for the 210 and 410 loaders. It's in a buyers spec sheet at link to purchasing guide. . Don't mean to be so terse about this stuff, but I get edgy over extreme and unfounded statements. Deceptive advertising can be, in fact, a crime and/or a tort depending on the intent--"Neil" said JD was being deceptive by using a different point to measure capacity or breakout (don't remeber which one). As I said, my reaction is to a Kubota salesman posting in a JD forum stating that JD's specs were deceptive because they were supposedly stated at a different lift point. It also seems to me that you have just affirmed that all manufacturers are all over the map on this.

I imagine the reaction to a JD salesman making extreme statements in a Kubota forum would find somebody just like me, except with an orange tractor, flaming back. Thanks for the "kinda' sorta'" objective reply, but anybody stating "deception" is alleging that something is deliberately hidden. And it sounds like you "kinda' sorta'" agree...

Has anyone figured out yet whether the BX loader has a greater rated breakout force at 500-550 mm forward of the pivot pin than does the 300CX or 210 loader on the 2210 or 2305? Looks like the 210 has a 1,072 lb. breakout at 550 mm forward and the 410 has a 1,500 at the same point /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Isn't that still a greater breakout than the comparable Kubota loaders in question? I guess I can't tell because I still see no reference to the point of measurement in Kubota's specs for its LA211 Loader. Do tell where the spec might be on their Website. Aren't they the company that provides three different points for their measurement? My conclusion is that none are more honest or deceptive than the other. Still /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Pete, we must be looking at differnet pieces of paper? The JD link you provided does not provide lift capacity at the 500mm forward of the pivot point, but it does provide the breakout capacity at that point. Then again, on the BX model Kubotas, the website specs are also unclear as to their measurement points. I don't have brochures for the small JD or the BX Kubotas. When the larger loaders are compared, the sales brochures from both brands are on my desk. In those brochures JD lists pivot point only. Kubota, NH and Massey list pivot point, 500mm points, and in some cases also list additonal points at the bucket center and the bucket lip.

Now I'm going from memory only, but when I did a comparision of the 2210 and the BX series loaders, it seems to me that both brands were actually just about equal. I can't remember if one was better than the other, but I do remember they were very close, close enough that I'd say it didn't matter. And to be honest, that is about what I would expect. And for the most part, most brands loaders are pretty close to most other brands in terms of capacity when looking at similar size tractors on different brands.

 

[bigpete]

Bob--I was comparing breakout force as that is the data point used by both manufacturers. JD's at 550 MM forward and Kubota's breakout at some unstated point. I understand the difference between "break out" and "capacity" and apologize for using the term "capacity." When I did my research a few years ago, I found the 210 loader to have about a 125-200 pounds greater break out force than the LA211. I vaguely recall it was a pivot point measurement, but it's been two years ago...

EDIT: I think I just changed all my "capacity" references to "breakout." Sorry if I might have missed a couple. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[rockyridgefarm]

I keep insisting that what APPEARS to be deception on Deere's part might also be explained by their conforming to tha ASAE specification. While we may not prefer that method,. it appears that is the direction taken by manufacturers with models introduced since December '02. (I believe that is the publication date...) As long as there is ANY plausible explanation for the practise, it is a good idea not to slip into possible libel concerning Deere's practices.

The EPA rates vehicles fuel mileage that has little relation to reality, either. But if Toyota started using their own 'Toyota Real World Mileage' number and their dealers started claiming all other brands were being deceptive by citing EPA numbers, I think we'd agree that they were a bit kooky. Even though we all know that the EPA numbers are only to be considered a 'finger to the wind' as to what one might expect, they are a standard.

ASAE has strandards for ag equipment. and whether we like it or not, that is the real comparison point. We will all have to remember that there are many factors that will be involved in real life situations. And when it comes down to it, a manufacturers representative (dealer) needs to be the one making sure that the equipment is matched to the need. Front end loaders on any equipment, and especially small machines are inherently unsafe. Buyers need to be sure they understand (and even more importantly) their dealer fully understands the capabilities and limitations of the entire configuration. If a dealer attempts to mislead you concerning the capabilities of their equipment, whether by ommission of commission, it is wise to see if there is a dealer out there willing to earn your present (and the ability for future, since you have a better chance of survival) business, as well.

And finally, I consider Neil a friend and a good guy. I understand what he is trying to say, and do not take offense. But a dealer coming to the Deere forums and acting as if all Deere stands for is to fleece poor fools does nothing to bolster your credibility. There are plenty of us around these parts who are not (quite) idiots and are quite happy with our equipment. And know what it can and cannot do. And have used other equipment, and are aware that those other machines are also fine products that also have limitations.

Lets try and have fun and Fight Nice!

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
And finally, I consider Neil a friend and a good guy. I understand what he is trying to say, and do not take offense. But a dealer coming to the Deere forums and acting as if all Deere stands for is to fleece poor fools does nothing to bolster your credibility. There are plenty of us around these parts who are not (quite) idiots and are quite happy with our equipment.
)</font>

Thanks, I did not mean to come off brash. I just get a bit tired of doing this over and over again. All too often someone makes claims that are simply false because they where told the pivot point measurement with no education about what it means. I'd gladly pass the tourch of being the bad guy to someone else.

I see alot of tractors from just about every company at one time or another, at the end of the day they all get the job done.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

And i have to admit that it seems like there is way too much confusion, folks thinking the loader they are considering is up to job 'X' when it isn't. And then there are a lot of dealers who don't seem to know the difference. So, maybe I am a little short fused in saying you should keep quiet. I really am not, keep it up! Just be careful that you don't always sound like JD is the BigBadWolf (even though, you are allowed to, since you are supposed to professionally hate them!) It just so happens, they may have less than sinister motives (once in a while!)

So, bottem line. I hope that you will continue to call a spade a spade. A pivot pin measurement isn't the safe working limit, and buyers/opewrators need to realize it. And maybe the manufacturers will figure out how to get on the same page.

I still stick top my guns that somewhere in this JD is actually trying to give fair numbers based on standards set by the ASAE. But lke EPA numbers, they are not enough for real world application.

And Bob deserves a ton of Kudos for vigilantly duking this out and opening our eyes to the fact that real world numbers are what it takes to get the job done.

And please everybody. Be safe!!! A loader that will handle the job safely is a great thing. One that is pushed beyond its safe limits can kill you.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Mike, I will echo what you said about Neil. Seems to me that I visit most of the brand forums, and I see Neil posting in most of them. He seems to post some things that might not be popular, but I'd say he is typically very accurate. There may be times when he might choose some less confrontational wording, but I am guilty of that too! Personally I think it is good that dealers visit and post in many forums, I think an alternate source of information adds to the total knowledge.



<font color="green"> I still stick top my guns that somewhere in this JD is actually trying to give fair numbers based on standards set by the ASAE. But lke EPA numbers, they are not enough for real world application. </font>

I have no problem with brands pushing the ASAE standards, but is would sure be nice if it was easier to find those standards. And the ASAE standards I have been able to find, which have also been posted here on TBN are incomplete. And I have looked everywhere for a complete list of standards and have failed to find them. But if you are a manufacturer and you post the standards then tell people the details of those standards, don't just say "conforms to ASAE blah blah blah"


<font color="green">
And i have to admit that it seems like there is way too much confusion, folks thinking the loader they are considering is up to job 'X' when it isn't. </font>

This point has been my biggest concern and issue. I never proclaimed to be an expert and I don't claim to being the most experienced user. In fact many of you are far more knoweldgeable than I will ever be. But I sure do dig for information when I get curious. And what I see is that the older JD marketing materials listed multiple points but newer material list pivot point and cites the ASAE standard.



<font color="green"> And then there are a lot of dealers who don't seem to know the difference. </font>

Oh don't get me started on this topic!!!



What bothers me most about all of this is that there are reports in many of the forums where people say I bought MY brand and it is better than YOUR brand because it lifts more . . . etc and then they find out that it doesn't do what they thought.

Or even worse than that, there are occasionally folks who bought a tractor BECAUSE they thought it had a specific capacity that met their needs and then found out they really needed a larger machine because they didn't know how to read the specs. And I think much of the blame lays on the dealership for either not knowing their own capacities or not taking time to fit the tractor to the tasks.

 

[LBrown59]

I just stopped in at my local JD dealer
and looked at the 2210
Price
$11500 Tractor
NO Charge MMM Included
---------------
Total $11500

Just for the sake of comparison
My BX 23 or BX 2230
$8100Tractor
$1300 MMM
------------------------
Total $9400.

For me $2100 isn't something to sneeze at - ESPECIALLY when I'm earning a 12 to 15 percent return on that $2100!.

 

[johndeere_2210]

LBrown, I do believe your numbers Deere vs Kubota and agree, $2,100 is nothing to sneeze at, but I must ask and you can send this to me privately, how can I get in on earning 12-15% consistently?

 

[rockyridgefarm]

You should be able to get the Deere 2305 which replaced the 2210 with a mower for about $10500. Still more than you paid for the BX, but that isn't even with any negotiating... If a buyer prefers one or the other, or one dealer over the other, the pricing is pretty close.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

What is the current price for a BX? I am just guessing here, but I suspect LBrown59's BX price is about a year old.