Kioti Tractor Tuning

[Threepoint]

It probably would cost the same to move up in tractor size and power as it would to try power up the tractor you have...
If you don't have enough power... get a bigger tractor..

Yup, price point for up-tuning is the key as to whether there will be much demand for the after-market capability when it becomes available. If the cost ends up around $2,000, and the choice is between, say, buying a new NX4510 and a new NX6010, then I think you're probably right. But I doubt that would be the market. A likely adopter would be an owner with a low-hour, five or six year y/o NX or DK with added accessories/mods who doesn't want to trade out for used with more power and risk ending up with someone else's problems. Seems to me that trading up to a dealer for a new model with an identical engine with 15 hp more would be a way more expensive option!

 

[hillwood]

The thing is... Does someone have a proven power up..?
A power up with proven testing and a warranty on the product...

 

[marchanna]

Not to my knowledge.

 

[jabelding]

Greetings, All,

Just a note of appreciation for all this discussion. I have lurked TBN for a while, contemplating the purchase of a tractor. I am attracted to the CK2610 specifically because it seems to hold potential for aftermarket up-tuning. I would not want to invalidate the warranty, but it would be a fine thing to look forward to an increase in power following its expiration. Having been involved in both automotive and computer hot-rodding, it seems so odd to me that we don't know more about how to tinker with tractors to coax better performance out of them. This thread is an important move in the right direction, I think: So please, keep on keeping on!

The new 2610 has the exact same engine as my 2014 CK35 1.6L. I believe it is not common rail just a standard plunger actuated injection pump that has been turned way back to get below the 25hp limit on tier 4. All you would need to to is turn up the fueling screw and you would be back at 35 hp easy.

 

[jabelding]

See picture
Remove cover screw in 2 turns test machine and under heavy load look for black smoke, if none turn up more. Once you get to the point where you see black smoke under heavy load back off the screw 1/2 to 1 turn. Best way is to use a dyno for an accurate measurement. Good video on it here.
Turning Up the Fuel on a Diesel Turbo Charged Tractor New Holland TL-90 by Everything Attachments - YouTube

 

[cbright1]

I'm wondering if a half-volt zenor diode soldered across the pressure sensor and a test tube installed in lace of the DPF would do the trick or if the ECU is smart enough to want to see a variable voltage comming back from the pressure differeial sensor. On page 12-77 of the service manual a 5 volt reference signal is sent out to the differential pressure sensor. Then:


"The differential pressure sensor detects the pressure difference between the inlet and outlet of the CCRT and sends a signal value of 0.5 to 4.5 V to the ECU. The larger the pressure difference between the inlet port and outlet port is, the closer the signal value gets to 4.5 V. The smaller the pressure difference is, the closer the signal value gets to 0.5 V."

The manual shows a picture of a DP5000 pressure sensor. I tried to unsuccessfully track this sensor down through Google, but it is the white wire that sends the signal (modified reference voltage) back to the ECU

Perhaps the internet can continue to puzzle this out frther.

And here a theretical way to build a circuit in place of the pressure sensor. Unfortunately, the Analog Behavioral Modeling is a little beyond my current skill-set.

Voltage-Controlled Resistor

I've also considered dropping in a digipot, but again, I don't know if the ECU is smart enough to kick into limp-home if it sees a constand signal or if the signal must have some variation.

http://www.analog.com/media/en/news...ection-guide/Choosing_the_Correct_Digipot.pdf

Anyway, my current high nail is just being able to interface with the ECU for service work, not modifying.

I couldn't find anything on the DP5000 either, but finally think I found the Kioti part#F6800-26651

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

Has any one had a dealer lookup part numbers for injectors and injection pump between the different models with the same engine? I know with Volkswagen Diesels (cars) depending on the transmission and performance package they have different size injectors and injection pump.

 

[finn1]

The ck operator manual suggests that the 3510 and 4010 tractors have a hpcr fuel system while the 2610 has an old pln system.

If true, the 2610 has nothing in common with the 35 or 40 hp models.

 

[deezler]

2610 has a completely different engine than the 3510/4010. Different displacement, fuel system, etc. Probably almost zero common parts.

It would still be nice to know if the 2610 could get juiced up to closer to 30 BHP. Or how easy it would be to tune the 35 HP 3510 to 40 BHP instead.

 

[mmecsics]

I could be wrong, but I知 pretty sure my 2610 has the old pre tier 4 ck35 engine. It will make 35hp with a turn of the screw. Even kiotis international web page shows it making 35 or 34hp. Just not in the states because of emissions.

 

[finn1]

A competent dealer will flag the serial number of any tractor that has had the fuel injection system or ECU tampered with and void any remaining powertrain or engine warranty.

Just something to think about.

 

[cholland]

2610 has a completely different engine than the 3510/4010. Different displacement, fuel system, etc. Probably almost zero common parts.

It would still be nice to know if the 2610 could get juiced up to closer to 30 BHP. Or how easy it would be to tune the 35 HP 3510 to 40 BHP instead.

Ther is another thread on here where someone talks about changing the tuning on a 3510. It seems to be as easy as flashing new firmware into the electronics. It will void the warranty. it will also increase the fuel consumption.

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

I did some quick searching and there are several cars using the Delphi DCM3.7 ECU. I looks like K-suite should be able to handle R/W and the check sum I believe the geletto can R/W but a few years ago they did not have the check sum corrected.
Alientech USA - K-Suite 3.16

I do not have my Kioti but should take delivery next week. I probably will not tune it right away but might look to see what it would take to connect to the ECU I have the equipment to connect to some of the older Delphi ECUs via OBDII.

 

[Threepoint]

I did some quick searching and there are several cars using the Delphi DCM3.7 ECU. I looks like K-suite should be able to handle R/W and the check sum I believe the geletto can R/W but a few years ago they did not have the check sum corrected.
www alientech-usa com/index.php/latest-news/207-k-suite-3-16 (cant post links yet)

I do not have my Kioti but should take delivery next week. I probably will not tune it right away but might look to see what it would take to connect to the ECU I have the equipment to connect to some of the older Delphi ECUs via OBDII.

Which model are you getting?

BTW, welcome to the forum. :welcome:

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

Which model are you getting?

I'm getting the 3510 HST with FEL, grapple, backhoe and bush hog. I traded the Kubota L35 in it was a bit large and I got tired of fixing lines every time I started a project.

 

[finn1]

I'm getting the 3510 HST with FEL, grapple, backhoe and bush hog. I traded the Kubota L35 in it was a bit large and I got tired of fixing lines every time I started a project.

So why didn稚 you man up and get the 4010 from the beginning? It comes with a warranty that you won稚 be voiding by screwing with the calibration developed by the Kioti development engineers.

When you get into the controller, what training or skills do you have to know what, exactly, your hack is doing to peak firing pressure, pin bore stresses, valve bridge temperature, piston bowl edge thermal stresses, and a host of other sensitive engine design parameters.

Anyone can hack a calibration. Doesn稚 take much engine design knowledge.

 

[PhantomOfHeat]

So why didn稚 you man up and get the 4010 from the beginning? It comes with a warranty that you won稚 be voiding by screwing with the calibration developed by the Kioti development engineers.

When you get into the controller, what training or skills do you have to know what, exactly, your hack is doing to peak firing pressure, pin bore stresses, valve bridge temperature, piston bowl edge thermal stresses, and a host of other sensitive engine design parameters.

Anyone can hack a calibration. Doesn稚 take much engine design knowledge.

I did not go with the CK 4010 because I did not feel the price increase was worth the extra 2.5hp at the PTO.

What training do I have? No formal training I have read several books and done testing on remapping. I have personally tuned/remapped my own vehicles over the last 12yrs. When I worked on my GM3800 (gas) I did many fun things like add DFCO, 2nd gear start, adjusted timing in low load, add perimeters to move to SD mode in transient throttle positions among other things. In the diesel world I have only worked with the VW ALH motor where I added about 20hp smoothed out the power band added launch control and adjusted the variable turbo to reduce spool and prevent over boost. I also adjusted the EGR tables to aid in warm up, reduce it in high load areas adjusted the fuel injection timing tables to match the new profile. That was about 300k mi ago.

If I were to do any major tuning to the engine I would add a pyrometer to monitor temps and adjust accordingly.

Have you ever looked at the maps in an ECU? The exact same engine transmission and body can have 3-7 different revisions per year. The nice thing about tuning an engine is you can add in tables they left flat because they did not think it would be necessary to built. That often happens to the tables for Speed Density (using MAP and RPM) and this is fine most of the time but if you have a sensor like the MAF die you would be lucky if the engine will deliver any power.

 

[finn1]

I did not go with the CK 4010 because I did not feel the price increase was worth the extra 2.5hp at the PTO.

What training do I have? No formal training I have read several books and done testing on remapping. I have personally tuned/remapped my own vehicles over the last 12yrs. When I worked on my GM3800 (gas) I did many fun things like add DFCO, 2nd gear start, adjusted timing in low load, add perimeters to move to SD mode in transient throttle positions among other things. In the diesel world I have only worked with the VW ALH motor where I added about 20hp smoothed out the power band added launch control and adjusted the variable turbo to reduce spool and prevent over boost. I also adjusted the EGR tables to aid in warm up, reduce it in high load areas adjusted the fuel injection timing tables to match the new profile. That was about 300k mi ago.

If I were to do any major tuning to the engine I would add a pyrometer to monitor temps and adjust accordingly.

Have you ever looked at the maps in an ECU? The exact same engine transmission and body can have 3-7 different revisions per year. The nice thing about tuning an engine is you can add in tables they left flat because they did not think it would be necessary to built. That often happens to the tables for Speed Density (using MAP and RPM) and this is fine most of the time but if you have a sensor like the MAF die you would be lucky if the engine will deliver any power.

I am intimately familiar with engine calibration strategies and engine development. Saying you have experience because you hacked a few tables is sort of funny.

Try being responsible for development and release of complete engine families, including calibration, and living with the warranty consequences of getting it wrong.

Most backyard calibrator place some unwarranted faith in an exhaust pyrometer. Exhaust temperature tells you nothing about piston crown temperatures, peak firing pressures, pin bore loads, or valve bridge temperatures.

The only thing it gives you a clue about is whether the turbine blades will melt, or maybe if the exhaust manifold will crack.

 

[Threepoint]

I did not go with the CK 4010 because I did not feel the price increase was worth the extra 2.5hp at the PTO.[snip]

Curious what price spread you were quoted between the CK 3510SE HST and the CK4010SE HST. A buddy is interested in both models, but hasn't checked pricing yet with dealers.

I don't recall if it was earlier in this or a different thread, but I recently saw a member say he was quoted $900 more.

 

[deezler]

I am intimately familiar with engine calibration strategies and engine development. Saying you have experience because you hacked a few tables is sort of funny.

Try being responsible for development and release of complete engine families, including calibration, and living with the warranty consequences of getting it wrong.

Most backyard calibrator place some unwarranted faith in an exhaust pyrometer. Exhaust temperature tells you nothing about piston crown temperatures, peak firing pressures, pin bore loads, or valve bridge temperatures.

The only thing it gives you a clue about is whether the turbine blades will melt, or maybe if the exhaust manifold will crack.

Finn; chilllll.....

Since you were clearly involved in engine calibration work, you would know that every engine released for production generally has quite a good safety factor baked in for various components. I can't think of an engine that I have measured/dyno'd over the last decade that couldn't easily handle 10% more power.

Add fuel to make a bit more power, and we know what will happen: Piston crown and bowl-rim temps go up, pinbore, conrod and main bearing loads go up, and probably exhaust valve and exhaust gas temps go up also (I almost typed out turbine also, but these are N/A Kioti engines). It's generally all direction-ally known. What we don't know, is how safe it will be over the long run. In cars and pickups, it usually doesn't matter too much since you can't really hold the engine at full load for more than 20-30 seconds max on any given road. On a tractor however, you could potentially get into trouble plowing fields, brush hogging tall weeds, etc. But if you only occasionally request max power from your machine, there's probably nothing inherently unsafe about eeking out 10-15% more HP for brief periods.

In any case, let people try some tuning and tinkering without admonishment. We can all learn from their mistakes or successes. It's not your problem, and they know it will be at their own risk.