Kioti Fuel Injection Pump Failure.....Timing of Pump??????

[GaryRo]

Hi everyone, i am new to the forum and this is my first post and i think a lot of you will find my experience interesting. I have a 2005 Kioti DK45s with only 1,036 hours and my FIP broke in the FULL open throttle and what a heck of a ride i had for 25 minutues before my friend could get to me and cut the fuel lines. Almost blew-up the engine at over 4,000rpms for 25 minutes...she was hot. I have read all the problems people have had with the FIP since 2005. If you don't know Kioti wants ...$1,444 for the pump but i am having mine rebuilt...which will cost me about $800. Also, you might want to know Kioti or more correct..Bosh/Zexel has superseeded the pump 4 TIMES in the last 12 years. Think they NOW know they have a problem or HAD a problem? Once again, for your information, for the last 14years many people on this forum have tried to figure out the problem....fuel needs additides, solenoid raming the rack to hard....teeth on gears to soft and so on and so on. So yesterday a unamed Kioti dealer told me that Kioti told him the metel in the rack was to hard. The company (26 years in business) that is rebuilding my pump said that was the dumbing thing they had ever head. They said they have seen over 1,000 of Bosh/Zexel pumps off several other tractors that have the same pump and it is NOT the rack. When i asked what the problem is, they said they could not tell untill i bring it in and they take it apart.
Now, here is my question, do i have to worry abot timing? I have a dealer service book and i can not find anything about timing. Do i just pull the pump and not have to worry about timing.
Thanks to all for reading and thanks to anyone that can help me about this timing issue.

 

[Coyote machine]

Welcome to TBN.

The IP needs to be in time with the other critical engine components; cam, crank, TDC of piston, etc. Who is going to rebuild your pump?
I'd be interested to hear what their explanation is to the cause of pump's failures....

 

[ritcheyvs]

In all likelihood, teeth from one (or more) gears on the IP broke off and the pieces jammed in the rack teeth, causing your wild ride. If the IP was in-time before the failure and if your local Diesel shop just replaces gears AND other parts (tappets, plungers, etc) go back in the original respective locations there is no need to re-time injection. Injection timing is set by shims between the engine block and the IP (so don't lose any). A new IP that's correctly calibrated should not require re-timing either.

Your local shop may plan to re-calibrate the rebuilt IP for that price. This probably isn't needed. Several owners have "fixed" their IPs just by rotating the bad gear 180 degrees so the bad teeth don't engage the rack. Greenecho got his IP fixed with all new gears for much less ca$h. See the spreadsheet linked in the sticky post (http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/296793-repair-option-kioti-tractors-broken.html).

 

[RickB]

Your local shop may plan to re-calibrate the rebuilt IP for that price. This probably isn't needed. Several owners have "fixed" their IPs just by rotating the bad gear 180 degrees so the bad teeth don't engage the rack. Greenecho got his IP fixed with all new gears for much less ca$h. See the spreadsheet linked in the sticky post (http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/296793-repair-option-kioti-tractors-broken.html).

Whether or not a pump needs calibration can't be determined by the pump shop without bench testing it.
No reputable pump shop will stand behind their work (which we all want them to do) without a complete test before return shipping.
That's the difference between a complete repair and rotating a failed gear so the broken teeth aren't being used.

Fast, cheap or good, pick any two.
My choice would be to know with as much confidence as possible whether a pump is going to perform after repair, and if it doesn't, I will have recourse.

 

[ON84]

GaryRo;
Thanks for the info.

Bad news: $1,444 for a part that was basically a manufacturing defect.
Good News: The engine ran at over 4,000 rpms for 25 minutes (full throttle). Tough little engine.
I wish Kioti would send a bulletin to the owners that have the defective pump and a replacement program before someone gets killed.

 

[Coyote machine]

GaryRo;
Thanks for the info.

Bad news: $1,444 for a part that was basically a manufacturing defect.
Good News: The engine ran at over 4,000 rpms for 25 minutes (full throttle). Tough little engine.
I wish Kioti would send a bulletin to the owners that have the defective pump and a replacement program before someone gets killed.

The IP's that failed were from older model year tractors, for the most part, as I understand the failures. Not sure the number of failures falls into the category of a manufacturing defect, especially since cause and effect are not well understood. It appears that Bosch/Zexel has made modifications to the IPs over the years, which is SOP for many companies to make production changes during ongoing manufacturing.
I'm also not sure the pump failures can be attributed to a certain production run or series of serial #s, so a bulletin would be difficult to use without specific knowledge of which pumps were most certain to fail. JMHO

 

[Fuggley]

GaryRo; I wish Kioti would send a bulletin to the owners that have the defective pump and a replacement program before someone gets killed.

Exactly! There should be a forced recall. KIOTI corp are well aware of this "known defect"..... guess they just don't give a **** at headquarters even though it is endangering lives.
Maybe the govt should investigate?

 

[GaryRo]

Thanks to everyone that replied to my timing question. For your information, which i got from what i call 3 experts, the shims at how you time the FIP. So, if you just take out the pump and make sure you do not destrub the shims and just use the old ones and the company rebuilding your pump makes notes of how the pump is set when they get it and set the rebuilt pump to the old setup, you are good to go.
Also, thanks to all the good coments and info everybody sent. Some of my thoughts after reading them is: yes, it seems the FIP are from 2005 thru 2010 per Richeyvs spread sheet BUT have you ever wondered about all the people that could have had this problem and are NOT on the internet and/or this forum. There is no way to tell how serve this problem is. By the way, i purchased my DK45s used with 529 hours on it and found out today from my Kioti dealer looking up the warranty work that it had to new FIP put on it at 186 hours. So my rebuilt will be the second pump.
Does Kioti really know they have a problem. Remember they can only review the warranty records to see if they are problems. So, if we are rebuilding them, there is no way they know how many are really failing unless we as customer either write or call them. Just some of my thoughts.

 

[ritcheyvs]

... Does Kioti really know they have a problem. Remember they can only review the warranty records to see if they are problems. So, if we are rebuilding them, there is no way they know how many are really failing unless we as customer either write or call them. ...

They have to know because they had to pay for warranty repairs on more than a few tractors with broken IPs. But I don't think they care. The problem appears to be confined to 2005-2008 build-year tractors, which are now all out of warranty. So barring some kind of legal action, this is off Kioti's radar. It's an owner problem now.

 

[Coyote machine]

I don't think anyone is likely to get 'killed' over a defective pump running full bore, but I suppose anything is possible, just unlikely.
It's possible that Kioti is unaware of the extent to which the IP failures occur, but I suspect they know they are not infrequent with these particular brand pumps. I believe it was stated that other manufacturers use these pumps too, which would likely result in more than just one tractor brand exhibiting problems for similar reasons.
Which government are we looking to recourse from, America or S. Korea? Either way, look at GM here; people dying from known faulty ignition switches, and the government agency responsible for recalls looking the other way with impunity! Ridiculous. No chance, no way our govt. is going to force a recall on IPs in any tractor, not now, not ever.
Status quo: Kioti makes money, Bosch/Zexel makes money, we pay for IPs or rebuild them.