Kioti Front axle

IH3444 · Sep 21, 2005

After comparing the front axles of Kioti and Kubota, it looks to me to be the exact same front axle design arrangement. The housing that supports the bevel gear which transmits the power to the front wheels is massive. Do all theses 4WD, front wheel assist compact tractors use basicly the same system. I've looked also at John Deere, and New Holland and their front knuckle units appear smaller. Was wondering if they use a different system of power transfer, or are the same arrangement, just smaller. Thanks again, IH3444

dbear · Sep 21, 2005

What is they say, that function dictates form?

IH3444 · Sep 21, 2005

Da Vinci, form follows function. It looks like it's bevel gear tight turn radius, verse planetary gear low cost to mfg. NH gets a tighter turn with super steer planetary. Does anyone know if Kioti use the Gleason Coniflex bevel gear system. It's an industry standard for bevel gear now, due to it's high strength.

Bob_Skurka · Sep 21, 2005

Do all theses 4WD, front wheel assist compact tractors use basicly the same system. 

Basically yes, they are reasonably close to the same. But there are differences that you may not see from any sort of external examination. For example, as you correctly point out not all use a bevel gear and there are different types of those in the front axle but to determine which have that you might have to take the front end apart. And there will always be a discussion on which gearing is better or is some better for some applications and not for other. The same applies to the front ends that offer automatic engagement of the 4wd systems, or have multi speed front axles, etc. As for the differences in size between some of them, it could simply be an issue of metalurgy, it is no secret that lower grade alloys or recycled metals must be thicker to equal the strength of higher grade alloys which can be both thinner and stronger, further it could be a design choice to distribute more weight to a specific area of the tractor, further, it could be an engineering issue where the type of gears used are able to be made smaller so the housing can be made smaller. I doubt the size is a strength issue as the Jinma tractors have some pretty massive castings, yet their front ends and gears are a weak point in the tractors when the loaders are heavily worked and things like worm gears seem to break down, so simple size is not an effective way to judge strength, durability or design sophistication.

IH3444 · Sep 21, 2005

Agreed, massive thick casting doesn't necessarily mean high alloy steel, and good heat treatment process. I think that mostly applies to the chinese made ones. The south koreans and Japanese metallury is most likely the tops. I cut my teeth after college in a metallurgy, mechanical engineering investigative group for failures, as well as being on a team that worked on some of the most advanced, and cutting edge systems for the Navy. One good thing about heavy casting, even less quality ones is their ability to handle shock loading, as long as there are a minimum of inclusions, or better yet none at all. Hey, they are tractors, they're suppose to be heavy, if you worried about weight, go design aircraft. I have read where some people wished their machine of choice weighted more.

albmn10 · Sep 21, 2005

Good points IH, I am one of those who definitely favors weight in a tractor. Some may say they can always add weight to their machines but most of these machines are not designed to carry alot of excess weight for long periods of time. Your observations of the Kiotis was just how i saw it as well.

Dargo · Sep 21, 2005

( I am one of those who definitely favors weight in a tractor. )

Then why didn't you buy Chinese?! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Most of the Chinese tractors I compared to Kioti were much heavier in weight.

Bob_Skurka · Sep 21, 2005

( ( I am one of those who definitely favors weight in a tractor. )

Then why didn't you buy Chinese?! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Most of the Chinese tractors I compared to Kioti were much heavier in weight. )

Have you looked at the Tractor King line up at Rural King stores? They seem to be very heavy machines and are lower priced per hp or pound than just about anything I've seen. Pretty nice looking machines too. Not the most technologically advanced, they don't have the digital dash displays you get with John Deere or the ergonomics of a New Holland, but for the price they seem to be a tough machine to beat.

albmn10 · Sep 21, 2005

Dargo , because we werent talking about Chinese tractors, if you and Bob like the rural king, go buy one.... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

IH3444 · Sep 21, 2005

I have only seen the rural kings on the web, I would like to see them also up close. I'm a bit convinced that some south korean factory is making front axles for both Kioti, and Kubota. The axles look idenical for some models. I could be mistaken. The person whom I met, and looked at his DK45C, he bought last year, said he has meet people at the Kioti dealer who are buying parts for their Kubotas, because the prices was cheaper. May have only been filters. I saw some Belarus tractors along the road being sold maybe 10 years ago. They were gone quick. Huge massive castings, very rough, but heck, it's a tractor. I have seen that they are almost a past era in the states here now. See one every now and then for sale in the classified, doesn't seem to be much market for them. I would wonder if you could get parts for them any more. I remember a neighbor telling of the tractor shop his father worked, and a chinese tractor was brought in, almost new, but out of any warrenty. I think he said the fellow payed about $6K for it. Well the crankshsft had broken, most likely from lugging it too much, and the new one from china was $2200, and that was over 5 years ago. Plus they had to wait for it for about 4 months, then pay to install it. After hearing that story, I thought it would have been cheaper to buy a brand new chinese tractor, same model if possible, and use the broken one for parts. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bob_Skurka · Sep 21, 2005

I'm a bit convinced that some south korean factory is making front axles for both Kioti, and Kubota. The axles look idenical for some models. 

I don't know but I doubt it. Seems like both Kubota and Kioti are proud of the fact that they are very vertically integrated and both seem to do their own castings in their own factories. I'm not saying they don't outsource some stuff, I'm sure they do but I doubt if they are using identical parts.

 The person whom I met, and looked at his DK45C, he bought last year, said he has meet people at the Kioti dealer who are buying parts for their Kubotas, because the prices was cheaper. May have only been filters. 

Dealers set their own prices, but it would not be unreasonable to assume that many filters are common across many brands. Heck you can get a lot of filters for tractors at the local NAPA auto stores. Me, I buy my New Holland parts at my NH dealer and my Kubota parts at my Kubota dealer. I want my dealer to know me as someone who supports him, that way if I need service, I get treated very well. Some of the parts guys know me, some of the service guys know me, I'm on a first name basis with the owner of the Kubota dealer. Both dealers know me as a repeat customer and if I need them they will come out to the house and pick my equipment up or drop it off when I am not at home, they know I'll drop off a check or slide it under their door. I suppose I could buy my oil at Wal Mart and save a buck a gallon, but when I wanted a snow blower I called the NH dealer and he gave me a great price ($200 below the next lowest quote I got), set it up, pre-cut the PTO shaft to work with my tractor and delivered it. When I wanted a Herd spreader I called the Kubota dealer, he shot me a price well below list, and had his guys load it into my wife's SUV as she was returning from town. Sometimes you can save a buck but it ends up biting you in the butt in the long run. Me, I'll support my dealers and buy the little things from them, they take very good care of me on the big stuff.

mrutkaus · Sep 25, 2005

I have a ck30hst and at the county fair here i looked at the rear end/transmission in a similarly sized kubota and darned if they didn't look exactly the same to me.

Mike

HODAK · Sep 26, 2005

I was looking at the L2800 and the CK30HST, (among others around the 30 hp range), when I was in the buying mode. ONE of the deciding factors was how much more beef the CK30 has. I'm sure I would have been happy with the L2800, but I am now a happy owner of a CK30HST

Kiohio · Sep 27, 2005

You really need to have them exactly side by side. We thought that too.....until we were at a show with Kioti and a Kubota very close to each other. The differences become very apparent then.

KO

depratt_equip · Sep 27, 2005

I have to agree with Kiohio, side by side comparison is the best, and where you see alot of difference.

KiotiJohn · Sep 27, 2005

I didn't even need them side by side as I went right from seeing the Kubota to the Kioti and it was apparent that there was more to the Kioti rear end. I found the comparable Kubota to seem much smaller, less guts. I know they're made of good materials, and lightweight, but I didn't want lightweight, I wanted the traction that comes with more overall weight. I know the argument is to add weight as needed, but that's not overall.
John

mike223 · Oct 19, 2005

KiotiJohn,
I went to the Kioti dealer in Lawtey, FL to look at his tractors, as I'm in the market for a tractor that has 41-45 HP at the PTO. I looked at the DK55, and got the specs on the DK45. I've also been to the NH, Kubota, Mahindra and JD dealers. The Kioti's were the MOST expensive out of all the others. Is this normal pricing? Do you know if anyone has had problems with the Turbo's on the DK45/55? How about the electric shift to 4WD? I'm genuinely interested in getting the most/best tractor for the money, and the Kioti's were much higher in price than the others. The competing tractors at which I've looked are the NH TC40/45, the JD 990 and 5109, the Mahindra 4110 and 4530, the Kubota MX5000 and M4800. So far, the Kubota M4800 is leading the pack, but I'm still open to ideas. Any help will be appreciated.

cag · Oct 19, 2005

Mike I know your reply is meant for John, and I'm sure he will reply to you, but I'm curious about first the dealer, and second which tractor you felt more comfortable on, two very important areas to look into when tractor shopping, just thought of mentioning this as you left it out...cag

KiotiJohn · Oct 19, 2005

( The Kioti's were the MOST expensive out of all the others. Is this normal pricing? Do you know if anyone has had problems with the Turbo's on the DK45/55? How about the electric shift to 4WD? I'm genuinely interested in getting the most/best tractor for the money, and the Kioti's were much higher in price than the others. )
Well, all I can tell you is that from time to time I go around and "shop," and I haven't yet found that to be the case. When you say they were the most expensive, are you really talking an apples to apples comparison? The guy in Lawtey, Dave Williams, usually gives a great price off the block, and I couldn't find anyone that could get closer than $2K more when I bought mine, and that was NH, Kubota and Deere being the most.
I looked at the Mahindras on Beaver Street, but never really got around to a "deal price" as I knew the dealer and didn't trust him from past experience in another business.
The DK45S is not turbocharged. I haven't heard any complaints at all about the DK55 turbo. I have heard of a few of them seeming to smoke a little much on start up, but probably nothing serious.
All I can tell you is, find one you like between the brands, and then talk down and dirty about pricing. Kioti was never higher when I was buying.
John

IH3444 · Oct 20, 2005

the Kioti DK45S compares more so to the NH TC48/55. There I think you will find the Kioti better priced. The NH TC48 was on the dealers lot, and after discussing the Kioti with the NH sales engineer, he truely low balled the TC48, so I got that one. The Kioti has a "great pumkin" in it, and well as some standard options, either you pay dearly for with the top three brands, or are not offered at all. Very surprised that the Kioti are priced anywhere near the other "three".