Kioti Broken in Half

[TMGT]

Did the transmission bell housing break? I can't tell from the pics but the loader appears to still be in place. Looks Iike just the front frame section broke taking the front end with it.

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[Jims1025R]

Tractors and airplanes used to be built with different philosophy's;

one which I still agree with is'
if in doubt build it stout.

an airplane has to balance stout with weight;

Well.... It's not that simple - for any structure. My dad, who was not an Engineer did teach me when I was a kid: "Them that bends don't break", and to a point, its a good philosophy. So I spend a lot of time investigating how things bend under load. As long as it bends back after the load is released, everything is fine. I've even bent some things (expensive things) which stayed bent after the load was released, but - did not release the load!

So if a tractor, or airplane is bending under load, I'm okay with that, as long as bending back to where it came from happens when the load is released. In airplanes (and by FAA requirement) the structure must carry 100% of the design load, proven by actual test, and then return without deformation at all. After that, 150% of the load must be applied. The structure can be permanently deformed, but the load applied must not release (it breaks). Then, the 100% load capacity should be stated somewhere, so the operator knows what to try to carry. Every loader I have ever seen stated a capacity. It's up to the operator to figure out how to measure that!

Though I make no assertions in respect of the broken Kioti, I can imagine a situation where the grapple is heavier than the bucket intended for the loader - okay, but then the capacity should be reduced accordingly. But, maybe, the operator picks up what the loader will lift, Hmmm.... structure tolerates it. But then the operator drives over a bump, and the structure suddenly suffers over load.

Some big loaders I have operated weigh the load, and warn of overload. We were lifting a jet fighter (for pylon display) off a flatbed once. The crane weighed the lift, and said no, by about 300 pounds (1% over) - but no, and would not lift. We all pushed up on the jet, and the crane picked it. The crane operator just held it there, while the truck was pulled out from under, and landing gear extended, so it could be set on the ground. Then he scoped in the boom, and changed the lift angle, and no problem up on the pylon.

The first compact tractor I had was a Kubota. I was a learner, and a little hard on it. I broke the loader. I had it professionally welded to repair it. I began to learn that just because I can lift, does not mean I should. If I can just lift, I need to be really delicate carrying that load. if the front tires are properly inflates, but still bunged right out, I'm asking too much of the tractor....

 

[TMGT]

Grapple stuff is normally pretty easy on a tractor's drivetrain as it is nabbing lighter-weight stuff—especially if there isn't any counterweight at the back—than three-point earth engaging stuff on the drawbar where all four wheels are working at or near a maximun effort to drag along.

Easier on drivetrain possibly, but the issue appears to be structural, my reference to the grapple was that it's oversized for the tractor which could possibly mean the owner wasn't easy on it. But who knows, maybe he was just transporting it or something else, hard to judge from just a picture.

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[MinnesotaEric]

Did the transmission bell housing break? I can't tell from the pics but the loader appears to still be in place. Looks Iike just the front frame section broke taking the front end with it.

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When I looked at the photos the other night, it looked like the bell housing sheering off the rear of the engine as/after the lower subframe front axle mount failed at the bend that holds the plate that bolts the front axle. With better photos, we may see that the actual failure is at the bolt line similar to the rear, lower-link stays on my tractor in the video I posted.

 

[Fixastuff]

In my experience the way people mess up tractors with a grapple is by picking up trees/other things that hang WAY out of the sides. Then drive around with em bouncing and leveraging on the loader. 10ft of tree hanging out with a rootball on the end creates alot of force. My dad wasn't an engineer though....

 

[TMGT]

When I looked at the photos the other night, it looked like the bell housing sheering off the rear of the engine as/after the lower subframe front axle mount failed at the bend that holds the plate that bolts the front axle. With better photos, we may see that the actual failure is at the bolt line similar to the rear, lower-link stays on my tractor in the video I posted.

The only breakage i can see appears to be the frame forward of the engine, why do you think there is a failure behind the engine/bell housing area?

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[MinnesotaEric]

Easier on drivetrain possibly, but the issue appears to be structural, my reference to the grapple was that it's oversized for the tractor which could possibly mean the owner wasn't easy on it. But who knows, maybe he was just transporting it or something else, hard to judge from just a picture.

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Every warranty department is itching for ways to deny warranties, but if we carefully examined the steering knuckles, pivot, and wheel bearings on the front axle and found everything to be in spec and tight, with only the frame broken, it would be tough to claim the user abused the tractor. Especially if we examine the cracked frame and find that it had been failing over a period of time like what I showed in the broken lower link stays on my tractor where at least five distinct layers of cracks happened before it let loose.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

The only breakage i can see appears to be the frame forward of the engine, why do you think there is a failure behind the engine/bell housing area?

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Look at the rear of the engine just below the loader lift arm. That appears to be the flywheel. From this, I conclude the bell housing sheered off after as/with the frame failure.

That said it'd be great to have better photos—especially detailing the actual cracks and any other failure points.

 

[DK35vince]

Look at the rear of the engine just below the loader lift arm. That appears to be the flywheel. From this, I conclude the bell housing sheered off after as/with the frame failure.

Not seeing it.

 

[LouNY]

If you look ahead of that were the daylight is shining thru the front of the engine compartment
that looks like the engine fan in the correct position and angle.
And also under the loader arms there is a cylinder that looks like it could be the starter in the proper orientation.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Not seeing it.

On my 27" iMac I can see the teeth of the ring gear on the flywheel.

Also notice that the owner is so AR, that he has a can of Kioti orange spray paint in the cab suggesting that he is taking care of things.

 

[ptsg]

View attachment 730985

That's the front of the engine. The subframe broke right in front of the engine. Looking at the parts diagram, I suspect it broke right where they put a 30 degree bend to widen the frame for the battery, radiator, etc.

 

[LouNY]

On my 27" iMac I can see the teeth of the ring gear on the flywheel.

View attachment 730985

That looks like a radiator to me with a hose above it.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

That's the front of the engine. The subframe broke right in front of the engine. Looking at the parts diagram, I suspect it broke right where they put a bent on widen the frame for the battery, radiator, etc.


View attachment 730984

I tell you what: that sure is the fan so I guess I'm all wet!

I reached out on FakeBook inviting the owner to provide us with better photos here on tractorby.net.

 

[TMGT]

Oh good, you all can see it too, so I'm not going crazy then!
Thought I had missed something.

Do we know if a warranty claim was submitted and denied?

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[LouNY]

 

[the old grind]

All my FELs (six so far, three now) had/have 'sub-frames' forward of the towers vs behind them. This puts downforce at the front of the 'frame' and front wheels and upforce on the tower. With a rear sub-frame all the load is at mid-tractor with the fronts more or less cantilevered out and not IMO as it should be. There's a reason for my preference. Check the loader on any industrial tractor.

This Allied 45 was left here last year when I sold the 5210. It has both front sub-frame and frame extensions. I didn't get the 'short WB rails' off before he hauled it to MA and only have those that came off a 2750 to sell with it for him. (make offer)

As installed:

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As sold:

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[ovrszd]

Grapple stuff is normally pretty easy on a tractor's drivetrain as it is nabbing lighter-weight stuff—especially if there isn't any counterweight at the back—than three-point earth engaging stuff on the drawbar where all four wheels are working at or near a maximun effort to drag along.

Not.

 

[the old grind]

My grapples usually do more than nab lightweight stuff, though digging up rocks and stumps are no part of their use. I can have a 'puller' on one FEL, a lifter on another, and the mini-BH to do the serious part with a bit of seat-hopping. btw, I'd rather not have to rely on a Swiss Army knife to cut an anchor or mooring line if ever needed.

 

[crashz]

I don't recall much talk about ballast here. If the owner was using that monstrous grapple to the limit, traversing rough ground and had no ballast (or tire ballast which would not help here), the majority of the weight of the tractor and load was on the front axle and transferred through those sections of the frame. While the loader might have lifted the weight, the impact loads of traversing were likely too much. Could proper ballast have helped? I think theoretically, yes.

And if I were a Kioti rep - that's where I would go first.