Iseki TX1300/1500 Hydraulic Woes

[dantnz]

Hey Dan,
The bushings are not meant to be a press fit. They just get stuck over time.
After you get all of them out you will want to clean and polish them
with a piece of crocus cloth or a scotch brite pad. The bushings
should slide in and out easily so when the pump is assembled the o-rings
constantly keep the bushings pressed against the sides of the pump
gears thereby minimizing the amount the gears move back and forth.
This also keeps the gap between the gears and the bushing
to a minimum for better suction in and pressure out. I believe
the bushing are suppose to be able to move freely to compensate
for wear . I think that is why the bushing have a flat on them.
And because the bushings can float the flat keeps them from
spinning in the pump housing bores. But hey that's just
my mechanical though processing of how I think things work.
I don't have any documentation to substantiate any of the above
information, Its just my opinion.
Now for where I get part numbers, I go to the Agco parts book
web site. You will want to use the north American web site so
you can view the parts books. The European site wants you to get a password
from your local dealer. On the north American site look for guest user
on the bottom right side of web page. at guest user click on view books.
from there choose Massey Ferguson, then parts, then tractors,
then compact, then 1120. Be aware that the 1120 has a different
front axle than ours. That is why I also use the White field boss 16
for parts. The White has the same front axle we have. Both
of these tractors were made by Iseki.

Try this link. If this works, look for the browse books on the top left.
If this doesn't work for you, try the other way outlined above.

AGCO Parts Books

Also, Check the link below.

TractorData.com - Farm tractors

You can lookup tractors of many manufactures.
My tractor was made in 1978. From what I have found
the TX1300 version I have was made from 1978 to 1981.
Also over here in the colonies these tractors were sold under
the bolens name. Mine is a bolens G154 which is an Iseki TX1300F.
In 1982 Bolens still sold a G152/G154 but it was now an Iseki TX1502/TX1504.
From what I have found 1991 was the last year Bolens sold Iseki tractors under
the Bolens name. I have a PDF of a 1996 Garden way Service seminar
which list the Bolens/Iseki tractors and attachments. I could e-mail
it to you if you want. One of the reasons I know some of this is because
we can't buy new factory Iseki parts in the USA because there are no
Iseki dealers here but there are Massey Ferguson dealers and if I
can come up with a part number under Ferguson they can get
me new parts through Agco who now owns Massey Ferguson.
Its a round about way of finding parts. Ok this has gotten
way to long. It has taken me over two hours to finish this darn post.
I had to stop and go find out why our furnace wasn't working. I worked
11 hours today climbing around one of our CNC lathes at work trying to fix
it and when I get home the house is cold but my wife and son did not
notice the furnace isn't working. I found the furnace ignitor had come lose and wasn't making contact so no spark. Do my post look upside down across the pond?

Ok, this has gotten way way way to long.

Thanks for spending the time on that - really useful stuff. It's not upside down, because I'm across the pond, but I do have to turn the screen sideways to read it!

Thanks for the tips on the bushes, I'll give them a bit of a hone before they go back in. I'm just waiting on the parts to arrive from the website above before I pull it apart again. The oil seal definitely needs changing too.

I'll update in about a week!

 

[dantnz]

Well a frustrating afternoon, all the new parts for the pump arrived, so duly rebuilt and installed. The pump was getting a good pressure just hand turning it on the bench... but its not the problem! Still no pressure at the lift arm.

I guess now it's either the valve block or the ram cylinder. Not sure which I'll tackle first, probably the valve block since that's easily accessible. It's going to be hard to diagnose anything since I don't have any way of pressure testing it - I'm assuming either the block or the ram is just bleeding all pressure to the tank.

Any thoughts?

Also fxrs55 - would you believe that the EU site for AGCO doesn't have the 1120 on it - and worse, won't let me into the US site (no guest option!). I'll find a way round somehow.

 

[chrismac]

If it was working before you changed the engine over I find it hard to believe a problem has appeared from nowhere, looks like you need to start pulling bits off again, is the problem with the drive in the timing case? (just a thought sometimes you have to think outside the box)

For info 117 bar of pressure, but you probably new that anyway.

 

[dantnz]

If it was working before you changed the engine over I find it hard to believe a problem has appeared from nowhere, looks like you need to start pulling bits off again, is the problem with the drive in the timing case? (just a thought sometimes you have to think outside the box)

For info 117 bar of pressure, but you probably new that anyway.

Cheers Chris, I did check the drive when I was building up the engine. I definitely had drive there when hand cranking.

I've actually just had a recollection. When I did the engine transplant the lift arms were in the up position. I'm just wondering if the lever was kicked over while it's was running and it has over pressurised something. Just a theory really as I'm clutching at straws. Do these have an internal PRV?

 

[chrismac]

I am pretty sure my TX2160 does not have an additional PRV, with my limited experience I would be confirming if I had pressure on the pressure side of the pump, then I could eliminate whether it was the pump side of things, meaning the problems were internal, but if you have no pressure then there is no point pulling the back end apart.

If as you think your dumping oil via a PRV then you will have serious pressure when you slacken the oil feed pipe to the control valve, would you agree that if the suction pipe was clear, the pump was in good condition and the feed line was good the pump should be working to that point in the system where it ties into the control valve. Once you can confirm excellent pressure, the rest will fall into place as its dead straight forward.

Chris

 

[dantnz]

I am pretty sure my TX2160 does not have an additional PRV, with my limited experience I would be confirming if I had pressure on the pressure side of the pump, then I could eliminate whether it was the pump side of things, meaning the problems were internal, but if you have no pressure then there is no point pulling the back end apart.

If as you think your dumping oil via a PRV then you will have serious pressure when you slacken the oil feed pipe to the control valve, would you agree that if the suction pipe was clear, the pump was in good condition and the feed line was good the pump should be working to that point in the system where it ties into the control valve. Once you can confirm excellent pressure, the rest will fall into place as its dead straight forward.

Chris

Your right Chris, that's the logical way of doing it. It's just hard to judge without a pressure tester. Maybe I'll just have to bite the bullet and get one.

But i can certainly check flow through system. When i get time I'll take the block off and check its operating correctly, after that I'll remove the piston and look at the rings. It could be the rings are just so degraded that oil is going straight through.

I could probably rig an air test to get an idea if the piston holds any pressure at all once I've checked the operation of the block.

Will be a little while before I get to it though, maybe next week.

 

[fxrs55]

I just read all of the post in this thread and I didn't see where you made
sure the screen was not clogged or where you said anything about
checking to see if something was plugging the pickup line to the pump.

As far as a gauge goes, Here are some pictures of what I did to
keep an eye on the hydraulic pressure. I bought a gauge for
hydraulics and a few fittings and mounted the gauge in line
at my manifold. I can check my pressure any time.

 

[dantnz]

I just read all of the post in this thread and I didn't see where you made
sure the screen was not clogged or where you said anything about
checking to see if something was plugging the pickup line to the pump.

As far as a gauge goes, Here are some pictures of what I did to
keep an eye on the hydraulic pressure. I bought a gauge for
hydraulics and a few fittings and mounted the gauge in line
at my manifold. I can check my pressure any time.

Yes, did check the filter, pretty clean actually. Logically, I didn't ever suspect it as I had good flow through the system.

Still haven't had time to check the block or the piston yet. For the piston it would be nice to have the replacement rings on hand when I do it, so it could be a while.

 

[Dave M7040]

Every 3 pt hitch has a mechanism to cut off the hydraulics at the top of the lift arm raising so the pump does not continue to try and force more oil into a cylinder already at full stroke.

Often, this feedback mechanism is a small diameter road attached to an upper lift arm and a nearby control valve.

If your feedback link is damaged, mal adjusted or missing... problems

This photo is not specific to your tractor but only to give you an idea of possible appearance.

Dave M7040

 

[dantnz]

Every 3 pt hitch has a mechanism to cut off the hydraulics at the top of the lift arm raising so the pump does not continue to try and force more oil into a cylinder already at full stroke.

Often, this feedback mechanism is a small diameter road attached to an upper lift arm and a nearby control valve.

If your feedback link is damaged, mal adjusted or missing... problems

This photo is not specific to your tractor but only to give you an idea of possible appearance.

Dave M7040

Dave, thanks, yes the TX tractors do have such a link, or should have anyway, the tractor I'm working on here has it, while my other TX does not - although that is fine because the loader operates from the ram takeoff.

I'm certainly suspecting that it's possible the piston rings are degraded or even blown through, just waiting on getting some MF1120 part numbers so i can get rings at a reasonable cost and replace while I've got the case open.

Cheers, Dan

 

[marcelPL]

Cannot wait to see the photo's. And this 50 euro for the piston does not sound too crazy to me, in the experience that i have. The full hydraulic unit on top of differential took about $400 from me. Because you simple have no other options...

 

[dantnz]

Cannot wait to see the photo's. And this 50 euro for the piston does not sound too crazy to me, in the experience that i have. The full hydraulic unit on top of differential took about $400 from me. Because you simple have no other options...

Thanks Marcel, I've somehow deleted that post, no idea how!

I'll post again with the pictures tonight.

The lift arm assembly is usually about 100-120 pounds used in UK. None available just now, bit I'm asking around.

It shouldn't be possible to self eject the piston, so i will have to inspect the ram case carefully in case there is more damage.

 

[dantnz]

I somehow deleted my post.

Here it is again.

I removed the lift arm assembly last night, to find that the ram had no piston in it! Somehow it had been ejected out of the cylinder into the gear case.

This should not be possible, but yet it has happened. I found the piston in the gear case, badly damaged from grinding against the bevel gear. The ram cylinder seems ok except for some damage at the bottom. It should be repairable.

Very lucky not to destroy the gear case. Lots of flushing coming up.

 

[chrismac]

How was that even possible? that's unfortunate but at least you know where your problem lies,

 

[dantnz]

I only got one shot before my phone battery ran out! Will get more tonight as I need to inspect the ram cylinder to make sure it's repairable.

There is more damage than this!

The grinding from bevel gears in obvious, but there are some more curious indentations that make me wonder if they were caused during the ejection or were already there.

 

[Dave M7040]

I only got one shot before my phone battery ran out! Will get more tonight as I need to inspect the ram cylinder to make sure it's repairable.

There is more damage than this!

The grinding from bevel gears in obvious, but there are some more curious indentations that make me wonder if they were caused during the ejection or were already there.

View attachment 599969

For me it is important to understand the orientation of your piston first.

Is the side with the indentations the one the hydraulic fluid presses against, or, is this the side where a push rod bears?

Post a picture of the other part(s) in contact with this piston.

Often, owners will physically lift the lower 3 pt arms not realizing they could be allowing the push rod to drop out of position.

This is a mistake I too made and as I lifted the lower arms, this movement allowed the push rod of the 3 pt hitch to drop out of place and then when I activated the 3 pt, it pushed out a sickening part of the rear casting on my Nuffield. The roll pin had worn out and the piston pushrod was not being kept in its proper position when the lift arms were raised by hand

This is a 3 pt piston seal detail which I expect should also exist on your tractor..... a nylon backup ring behind the O ring.

In thinking about this photo I have provided, I now see two nylon backup rings on the same side of the O ring. One nylon ring should be on each side of the O ring to keep it from being extruded into the small gasp between the piston and its cylinder

Before you condemn your piston, lets understand how it works.

Dave M7040

 

[dantnz]

Dave, thanks for all that detail. The picture is of the pressure side of the piston.

The piston is definitely condemned! The underside is even worse.

The o rings are in place as per the parts diagrams, no problems there.

I think what you are saying about over extending the arms is probably correct, although I don't recall this happening. I'm also curious about it, as my other TX1500F relies on the arms being fully extended to power the loader. I'm planning on a few experiments when I get time to see at what position the piston can be ejected.

 

[dantnz]

Cannot wait to see the photo's. And this 50 euro for the piston does not sound too crazy to me, in the experience that i have. The full hydraulic unit on top of differential took about $400 from me. Because you simple have no other options...

I've ordered the replacement piston and o rings from Germany - all up about ｣56, so not bad at all. I just need to file and polish some damage at the very base of the cylinder before the new one goes back in.

 

[chrismac]

For me it is important to understand the orientation of your piston first.

Is the side with the indentations the one the hydraulic fluid presses against, or, is this the side where a push rod bears?

Post a picture of the other part(s) in contact with this piston.

Often, owners will physically lift the lower 3 pt arms not realizing they could be allowing the push rod to drop out of position.

This is a mistake I too made and as I lifted the lower arms, this movement allowed the push rod of the 3 pt hitch to drop out of place and then when I activated the 3 pt, it pushed out a sickening part of the rear casting on my Nuffield. The roll pin had worn out and the piston pushrod was not being kept in its proper position when the lift arms were raised by hand

This is a 3 pt piston seal detail which I expect should also exist on your tractor..... a nylon backup ring behind the O ring.

In thinking about this photo I have provided, I now see two nylon backup rings on the same side of the O ring. One nylon ring should be on each side of the O ring to keep it from being extruded into the small gasp between the piston and its cylinder

Before you condemn your piston, lets understand how it works.

Dave M7040

Are you certain its 2 white backing rings and not one with 2 coils,

Chris

 

[chrismac]

Here is the set up and piston out my TX2160,

DSC02682 by chrismac2012, on Flickr

same but another
DSC02651 by chrismac2012, on Flickr

piston as removed note the white backing ring, there is only 1 athough its a double coil.
DSC02686 by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Hope those can be of some use,

Chris