Is It Worth It?

LarryR · Mar 30, 2009

Need your input but first,
I知 at the 56 mile marker in life now. I have 2 yrs of college in four various trades from Automotive to Computer Technology but no degree. After 18 yrs I took an early retirement package in 2005 from a major US corporation due to a corporate takeover. My middle name could be 展FR (Workforce Reduction).
Have applied at Home Depot, Lowe痴, Walmart, and Brookshire Bro痴 Super Markets but no phone calls yet.
My counselors (friends that I trust) are telling me I need to find some kind of business to start and stop depending upon corporate Amerika (sp on purpose) for my income because I still have a mortgage and I知 too young to retire.
I知 thinking about going into the Tractor Mowing biz (just me, my tractor and maybe a zero turn mower for the front yards). I know it won稚 pay what the corporate boys pay but at least I壇 be doing what I love to do. I致e read some posts here from forumites who are in the mowing biz and what痴 involved in doing it. I知 a former Kubota L3130 owner. My question(s) about starting a tractor mowing biz are:
1. Is it worth it?
2. Is a Kubota M6040 Cab with a Rhino 6 cutter too much tractor for mowing 5-100 acres and do site clearing also? I have no eqpt and must buy it.
3. How do you advertise your business? (i.e. business cards, flyers, etc)

Thank you

two_bit_score · Mar 30, 2009

Could it really hurt you to try it and see if it works? That's the question I see. If it would really put you in the hole financially then it may be a little more questionable. But, if you already have some equipment or will need it in the future then what would it hurt to try out the biz and see how it works for you? Just don't sell yourself and your service too low. Make sure you can cover your costs and make a profit when you qoute a price. Volume will never make you money if you are losing a little on each job. There are plenety of people who will hire you if you are too cheap to make it worth your own time.

plowking · Mar 30, 2009

Depends on how much competition in your area. How big is the population and any housing developments close by? Do you already have a truck and trailer. Local publications,advertising or business cards on local bulletin boards . I do some community service where I live. Town has a old home day every year and I have a booth with info set up along with other merchants in town. Don't know if residential or commercial accounts are a better way to go. See if your town,state require any permits for your business. Insurance is a big consideration when you work on other people properties. Pesticides can require additional permits,maybe hazmat endorsements. plowking

JoeinTX · Mar 31, 2009

LarryR, welcome to the club

I too was downsized from a major corporation recently. While I was blessed with a nice seperation package which means I don't have to find a new job right away and filing for unemployment is a long ways off, gears get to turning. To boot, I might just go back to work for them once all is said and done, go figure.

Nonetheless, I've begun to have the same musings. Last week I built a wooden deck for a friend.........I hadn't used those skills in a loooong time, but, I thoroughly enjoyed myself. Over the weekend I fired-up and serviced my long-sitting 8n. It has about 20 hours on it since total rebuild and the little Howse shredder on it has mowed about 15 acres in its life and the delivery stickers are still on it. Good feeling........good feeling. I've built hundreds of miles of fence in my earlier years of all kinds......wire, wood, metal, cable, etc....know about that and have the tools.

Living in a suburban area where such abilities are not so prevalent I am pondering a business on my own encompassing all of the above...tractor work....general handy-man......fencing, etc. Heck, when I figure the per-hour charges, I might be able to make as much on some jobs than I made corporately. Who knows? Years ago, I took out insurance and a tax ID for a mowing business that I let lapse when the "regular job" took too much time......maybe let it roll now?

I'm still intending to get back into a regular corporate job since I've developed those skills very well, but, I'm wondering about doing the private thing in the mean time until the job market gets better. Would be great if I could do everything on a pure cash basis but probably not possible considering the scope. Then the legalities get involved.....sit and collect severance/unemployment until you find a new job or strike out on your own at which point you could forfeit it all.

I am fortunate enough that I know the language of each and can communicate accordingly...............upper-end or lower-end............and provide what they need. Talking to potential customers in their own "tongue" is a important as price or anything else.

So, do I go all-out in my own business...........or just get by until the next offer........or sniff it off until the next primary job offer........or a combination of the the bunch?

I can perfectly organize your organization OR build your privacy
fence and do each with extreme aplomb.

Suggestions...........?

AKfish · Mar 31, 2009

LarryR said:
I知 a former Kubota L3130 owner. My question(s) about starting a tractor mowing biz are:
1. Is it worth it?
2. Is a Kubota M6040 Cab with a Rhino 6 cutter too much tractor for mowing 5-100 acres and do site clearing also? I have no eqpt and must buy it.
3. How do you advertise your business? (i.e. business cards, flyers, etc)

Thank you

I'm sorry to hear about your momentary "downturn". I can only imagine the frustration and anxiety that must follow you around every day...

However, since you're throwin' things at the wall and lookin' for somethin' to stick - I'll try to lend a word or two.

1.) NO
2.) Plenty of tractor for bigger jobs. Over-the-top for many small jobs, though. You could use a pull-type 10' mower with this size machine. A lot of money to "bet on the come"; too!!
3.) You already know the answer to this question. Cheap can be nearly as effective as the more "formal" approaches i.e. business cards, newspaper ads, web site. Craigslist, flyers with the little phone number strips, parking your tractor & truck with a big FOR HIRE sign on it along a big shopping mall.

Common sense evaluation of the business model that you're comtemplating should illustrate the "negatives" of this enterprise in today's current economic climate. Money is tight. Jobs are tenuous and people are concerned about layoffs.

Lawn mowing, site clearing, landscaping, yard care (fertilizer, herbicide application, etc.) are jobs that many people will do for themselves under the current economic clouds. Hiring out those types of work is a luxury. People focus on necessities.

Play to your strengths. Shooting craps on a "field of luxuries" is not a wise move - IMO.

AKfish

chh · Mar 31, 2009

My personal opinion on any of that is that I would go the cheap route it I didn't have a lot of experience with doing it. Since your applying at Lowe's ect, I would take it that you are in a urban area. Take your current lawnmower and weedeater and start trying to find a few yards and go from there. Even if you have to get a new mower your odds of it paying out are a lot better in lawns than in commerical work right now.

CurlyDave · Mar 31, 2009

Larry:

I have known a few people in business for themselves. Every successful one has spent as much time on marketing and billing as on actually doing the work.

Doing the work may be fun, but drumming up customers, writing invoices, following up to get them paid, bookkeeping, and compliance with regulations can be a real drudgery. If you have the temperament to do all that, go for it.

ICGREEN · Mar 31, 2009

LarryR said:
Need your input but first,
I知 at the 56 mile marker in life now. I have 2 yrs of college in four various trades from Automotive to Computer Technology but no degree. After 18 yrs I took an early retirement package in 2005 from a major US corporation due to a corporate takeover. My middle name could be 展FR (Workforce Reduction).
Have applied at Home Depot, Lowe痴, Walmart, and Brookshire Bro痴 Super Markets but no phone calls yet.
My counselors (friends that I trust) are telling me I need to find some kind of business to start and stop depending upon corporate Amerika (sp on purpose) for my income because I still have a mortgage and I知 too young to retire.
I知 thinking about going into the Tractor Mowing biz (just me, my tractor and maybe a zero turn mower for the front yards). I know it won稚 pay what the corporate boys pay but at least I壇 be doing what I love to do. I致e read some posts here from forumites who are in the mowing biz and what痴 involved in doing it. I知 a former Kubota L3130 owner. My question(s) about starting a tractor mowing biz are:
1. Is it worth it?
2. Is a Kubota M6040 Cab with a Rhino 6 cutter too much tractor for mowing 5-100 acres and do site clearing also? I have no eqpt and must buy it.
3. How do you advertise your business? (i.e. business cards, flyers, etc)

Thank you

As a person who has been self employed since graduation from high school I once commented to a friend how scared I would be these days if I put my income in the hands of someone else. He said he felt the same about having to find his own income. I admit there are times when I really wonder why I chose to be self employed but overall I wouldn't trade it for anything. My #1 rule would be to find a business that allows for repeat customers. By repeat I mean someone that will be willing to write you a check several times a year. I've been in business that required me to find a new customer after every job was completed (home building, remodeling) and its a real pain. No matter how well you treat the customer they just don't need you again. Still have a remodel business but also a service business. So nice to see the same customer several times a week. Sell them 5 or 10 bucks every time through the door. Life is so much easier. I would also look for a business that will net 20%. You can do it on less but you have a much harder time making it through the soft times. You can net 20% on just about anything if you're a good enough salesperson. Would I do it again? Yeah, I would. Its especially nice now that my schedule is more free. Be prepared to work your butt off until you get over the hump. We still have substantial debt and will for the next 4 years. That keeps us a bit worried with the economy the way it is so it the thought of mortgaging your house, wife and kids bothers you plan a way to do it on the cheap. Once this first round of debt is gone we plan on trying to be on a cash only business. Whatever you decide good luck and find a mentor to help with the inital business pains. It will save you at least a years salary to have a good mentor.

LarryR · Apr 1, 2009

Thanks to all who have replied thus far. To comment on some of the replies:

I live in a rural farming/ranching community and I can afford to buy the eqpt (though I may have to scale back a bit).

I'm not sure how much competition I have. Those neighbors close by me have tractors but they're not in business to haul in or over the county line for profit. They're too busy taking care of their own 25-100 acres. I can haul over a spread of 5 counties.

After 4 yrs of off and on contract work for large businesses and then waiting 6 months for another gig to come about, I think it's time to do something on my own. The wife and I have a rental property and plan to buy more but it's not enough to replace the salary I once had. At least I'll be the one that hires or fires me.

Right now my job is to find a job and that's a full time job in itself. I get the feeling I'm spinning my wheels and getting nowhere.

I realize there are many variables to the mowing biz or any business for that fact. I'm still weighing the odds.

Thanks to all who participated.

RWolf · Apr 1, 2009

You can probably answer most of your questions yourself when you sit down and do the math (literally). When you break down your equipment cost, maintenance, insurance, fuel etc. you can determine how many jobs you'll need to finish and get paid for each week/month. On the surface you may start out saying "I can do this" but what happens after a few weeks/months of no business. Can you still make those payments? I don't know what it's like around Navasota but around here the only mowing business is doing peoples lawns. Anybody who has large acreage is going to be looking for someone to cut and bale hay etc.

JoeinTX · Apr 2, 2009

"I would also look for a business that will net 20%...."

Just curious, IC, but what is this 20 percent representative of? Total investment? Monthly overhead? Monthly/yearly gross income vs. all costs?

I've used a number of the online small business calculators but none of them are exactly made for my situation since I'm not looking to borrow anything and have no substantial fixed costs.......the graphs are all skewed and geared more toward loan payment figuring.

mjncad · Apr 2, 2009

Welcome LarryR.

If Lonecowboy is still a member, I'd suggest searching for his posts and/or private messaging him and see if he's willing to share his insight with you as that is how he makes a living. I just haven't seen him post much lately.

He's a Colorado businessman, that shared his experiences with the group.

The Dougster · Apr 2, 2009

A bunch of years ago I found myself basically in your same position... Horrible economy and no one wanted to hire an old guy at decent wages... After a few months pounding the pavement I pondered the same thing ... going in business for myself.... Ate a lot of beans for the first couple of years and I advise you to expect that... Next bit of advice? Network, network, network!
I am familiar with Navasota and advise you to begin looking at some of those realtor signs that you see advertising large plots for sale... Most that I see are overgrown and not much more than weed patches. These folks aren't going to be major repeat customers but an active realtor may have many locations in the same condition. Introduce yourself to them and create a friendship, i.e., take them out to lunch, coffee, etc.
Careful with your expenses... Rather than buy equipment you need, see about rental availability until you get off the ground and can justify major expenses.
Realize that you will need to set aside 50% of your earnings to cover income tax and social secutity. You don't want any major surprises on April 15th.
I often think of folks that express a desire to be in business for themselves and I cannot help but be reminded of something some wag once said:
"The really neat thing about being self employed is that you get to choose which 70-hours a week that you work." There's a lot of truth in that. Good luck.

LoneCowboy · Apr 2, 2009

No

In a rural area, you have few customers, (since most have their own equipment) and prices are low.
You need to be in a urban rural area. Where prices are high, but parcels are smaller (5 to 30 acres).

The problem is transportation.
You can't transport (legally) anything bigger than 8' wide. But 8' wide doesn't do boo. It's all about # of hours on the machine, the faster you can do the work, the fewer hours you put on the machine. Which means you need a 12 or 15' mower, which means you need a REALLY BIG TRUCK or trailer.
Think CDL, USDOT and all that associated crap.

We don't use our 6' mower for anything over 3 to 4 acres. If I can get the batwing in there, I do it.

Cost of the machinery is $30 to $35 a running hour. That's your cost on every hour you put on the machine. Doesn't cover transportation, etc, only on the tractor.

On the plus side, the grass probably grows a lot more there than here. Here we might get 2 cuttings, sometimes 3 all season. There you should do much better, but it also means that rates are going to be lower.

Stuff breaks when mowing, cut a tire, hit a sign, whatever, it's part of the business, expect to have to cover that. There are days when you end up working for free. (work all day for an $800 job and then cut a rear tire in the last hour, which costs, wait for it. $800)

Don't forget insurance. Liability insurance actually isn't bad, it's the cost of commercial vehicle insurance that's the killer. Figure double a personal truck rate.

I've seen in Texas that they have these large crews of PRIVATE companies mowing the sides of the roads. (3 or 4 tractors with batwings), that would be the ticket. Gauranteed money, gauranteed work.

HTH

LoneCowboy · Apr 2, 2009

More thoughts
it's a capital intensive business.
Tractor, mower (s), truck, trailer, parts, tools, etc

Lots of money to invest up front. Keeps the competition down (two guys and a truck doesn't work) but also means more to lose.

The weather can blow you up. For example I need to be seeding right now (we don't just mow, we only do that during the summer) but it's snowing. So, I can't even schedule bids, much less work. But it doesn't stop the bills.

You won't believe the amount of money you'll spend on tires. (truck, trailer, tractor). Even the plug fix it kit (which is worth every penny) still won't save you from everything.

States manage to find ways to tax anything and everything used in a business. Here in Colorado they call is a SMM plate, but really ti's just a plate to prove you paid your personal property tax on your tractor. I'm certain all states have something similar. Business's get robbed blind by the tax guy.

Ohhhhh, workman's comp. And personal health insurance is very expensive and almost worthless. But personal health insurance won't cover if you get hurt on the job, that's what workman's comp is for. (it's a scam, but they got you by the short ones)

Don't worry about income tax the first few years. Between depreciation and things breaking, there's no chance of having to pay lots of money in income.

Feel free to PM me.

Farmwithjunk · Apr 2, 2009

Is it worth it? In as few words as possible....? It depends.....

I started a mowing business less than 3 years ago. It's already far exceeded expectations. I was blessed from the get-go with a couple VERY lucrative accounts that put me into high gear from day one. You can't count on that when planning a start-up operation though. I'd consider my current financial situation too. Do you have enough start up capital and enough saved for that "rainy day" to weather the first season?

I started small. It's foolish IMHO to start off with a long list of fancy new equipment (and the debt that goes with such). Start of year two, we bought 2 new tractors and two new batwings. Year three, I just took delivery of two MORE tractor/mower rigs. Before making the latest moves, I had signed contracts in hand that I knew would pay for all the new equipment.

DOn't jump in over your head on a dream. Make certain reality can live up to expectations first. My customers don't care how "GQ" my employees uniforms are. They don't care what color my tractors are. They couldn't care any less what sort of trucks and trailers we haul on. They're interested in a couple basic things. Price and quality of work. (Most care about price MORE THAN quality I'm convinced)

I live in rural central Kentucky. SOME of my work is in urban areas, but the lions share is out in the country. (We specialize in large acreage tracts and highway right-of-ways)

Knock on doors. Learn the fine art of shameless self promotion. I DO NOT believe in using expensive advertising (news paper classifieds, yellow pages, ect) Not enough market for my line of work in those venues.

The question I'd ask myself before diving into ANY new business is, WHAT SORT OF BUSINESSMAN ARE YOU? There are literally THOUSANDS of successful mowing/ag service business's in this country. There are literally THOUSANDS that fail every year too. The difference ISN'T what brand of tractor they buy or what sort of oil they use, it's USUALLY more basic. Some people can operate a business and some people CAN'T.

mjncad · Apr 3, 2009

LoneCowboy:

Thanks for your posts for LarryR.

I used to mow weeds for the neighbors in my small acreage community (2 - 5 acres) as a way to earn extra money. I learned a lot from your posts and when I found out I needed an SMM stamp to be kosher with the tax parasites, I quit the mowing sideline as I wasn't making that much to justify the SMM stamp and the other headaches associated with trying to make a buck with my tractor.

I'm glad to see you still read TBN.

LBrown59 · Apr 3, 2009

mjncad said:
SMM stamp

What is it???

LarryR · Apr 3, 2009

Yes, what is an SMM stamp?

And thanks to all for the education in these posts.

LoneCowboy · Apr 3, 2009

LarryR said:
Yes, what is an SMM stamp?

.

Special Mobile Machinery.

self-propelled, used commercially, off your own property. (notice that definition includes lawn mowers)

This only seems to be true in Colorado, no one else has found such a thing thruout the US. (it's not bleeping cheap either, figured by weight and value. for example, my 2007 TC45 is $500 this year!!!!).

You get a plate if it's ever going to be on the roads. (I always get a plate and then I feel fine riding down the road at 13mph, too bad, so sad, I paid my taxes). You get a stamp if it's not going to be on roads. (typically tracked machinery). The cost is the same.

The fine is double the tax if you get caught.

I have however found out that there is in Colorado what is called business personal property tax also. Anything used in your business is supposed to be taxed each year (how stupid is this BTW? I should pay again for it?). The SMM plate/sticker basically pays this tax and proves it when it's mobile.

I am CERTAIN that all states have some kind of this personal property tax that you are supposed to pay.