Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it's worst day!

_RaT_ · Jul 18, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

WAR, oh wow, is this what you call war? Unbelieveable that a minor discussion from Art and others about what some of us may find interesting regarding misunderstandings about HST and some liken it to war. I call it intelligent discussion, the idea of articulating your facts and diseminating them in front of others. A little unsensitivity training is needed. No Girlie men. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ole_Hickory · Jul 18, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

 You guys have way too much time on your hands... 

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I must have too much time on my hands,I spend a lot of time here reading etc.

Anytime Art makes a post I have found you can pretty much bank on what he says.The same can be said for Bird.

KiotiJohn · Jul 18, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

( WAR, oh wow, is this what you call war? Unbelieveable that a minor discussion from Art and others about what some of us may find interesting regarding misunderstandings about HST and some liken it to war.)
If you had read the post right, you would realize that I was referring to the whole process of this argument, not this particular thread. However, you chose not only to misread it, and make light of it, you decided to be offense to anyone who disagrees with you by the statement "no girlie men," which doesn't belong anywhere in this forum. John

_RaT_ · Jul 19, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

Sorry John, that was mean. No time out, just spank me. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Rat...

KiotiJohn · Jul 19, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

_RaT_ · Jul 19, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

Girlie Man Remark

KiotiJohn · Jul 19, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

Come to think of it, I remember that routine. I've heard Arnold use that term before. Funny in its proper context. John

cowboydoc · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

One thought - the quoted 20%-30% loss number may then not be referring to the difference between a hydro and a gear system but rather the absolute loss in the hydro system. 

Yes you are exactly right Tim. But nobody ever takes the dang time to read what is said. Let's just go pop off some more about the hydro war.

Here is my exact quote. But I don't care what people say I know that the hydro robs more than a couple hp. It's more like 20%. Take 20% off the 58 hp and I'm down to where I am now. Notice for the tractor we were talking about the gross hp is 58hp. The 30 YEAR OLD TEST that Art so flamboyantly put up is exactly what I said, a 20% plus loss in hp. I never said it was a 20% loss compared to gear. But here we go with everyone assuming and then trying to make something out of nothing just because it was a quote about a hydro, in a deere forum about why I didn't want a hydro. How that got blown up into this is beyond me.

art · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

In prior posts you had infered 20% up to a forty percent loss from a hydro! I would take that as being a loss over the gear just like many others here have. The truth is there are many occasions that a hydro can actually be a major advantage over a gear in pulling! Did it mean you didn't know that many of the gear drives rob so much? Yes the tests are thirty years old and they were done on tractors that many have lived there lives out, but just think as to the improvements over the time and how much better they are today.

cowboydoc · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

First of all the 30-40% loss that I mentioned is in a combine. I wasn't even talking about a tractor!!! Again don't bother to read the post and what was said. Anyone that runs a combine can tell you that is true. They're great for what they do which is combining. They weren't meant to be pulling a load. If that was true and the hydro was so great in the combines why not put them in the 7000, 8000, and 9000 series tractors? Why go with the IVT when the hydro was already available? Seems pretty stupid to spend millions in R&D to develop the IVT when if the hydro was so great that was already in production was just as good. This is probably the most ridiculous debate over hydro yet. I said there was a 20% loss in hp. Your test that you posted showed a 25% loss. Proved exactly what I said. Never one time in a post did I say that the hydro was 20% less efficient than the gear tractor. What you want to infer and try to make into a debate is your problem.

And if they're so much better today where's the proof? I have yet to see an official test. I know what people say that I've talked to and it's still running the same as what you showed.

KNotMe · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

There is no power loss in an HST, remember that basic fact of physics, energy is neither newly created nor destroyed. If we assume an increased safety/efficiency in a particular HST machine when compared to a geared one for a given application, then the reduction in horsepower at the PTO for example does not represent a loss of energy, but a transformation of that energy to the increased efficiency/safety. Nobody complains about the power loss in assisted steering, or the power loss when they turn on their worklights, because of the appreciation for the benefit that accrues from the transformed energy.

Your bias against HST is interesting, you have stated that you will not buy the new 4X20 by your beloved JD for that reason.

cowboydoc · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

Yea this is another good one. My beloved John Deere. In that same thread that I get hammered on for hydro issue I say how stupid deere is for not having draft control and not putting a reverser in the 4720. But I'm a deereoid, yep. Heck I'm trying to do a deal on the New Holland that Robert turned me on to. Yea I'm a dyed in the wool deereoid for sure. I don't like hydros, I like deere equipment, yea I'm just a really bad person.

KNotMe · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

Cowboydoc,

Nice response, you took my comments in good spirits without offense which is the way it should be.

More grease to your elbow.

Egon · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

Doc, I can understand an HST in a combine as ground speed can be varied according to the required feed rate and yet the internals are still running at the proper RPM. Don't think its a lot of fun to clean out a plugged up combine. Many years ago a neighbour had the straw chopper plug up and was found some time later minus part of his head.

As for a tractor used pulling ground engaging equipment I 'd go for the gears.

For the type of use my little Kubota sees HST is the way to go.

Egon

cowboydoc · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

I agree that hydro in a combine is the way to go for sure. Hydro in the little compacts and sub-compacts is probably the way to go as well.

Robert_in_NY · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

( Yea I'm a dyed in the wool deereoid for sure. I don't like hydros, I like deere equipment, yea I'm just a really bad person. ) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Don't worry to much about this Doc. There are some things best left alone. Has the weather been better to you then it has to me? I can not get more then two good days in a row before we get another 3 of rain. It is getting really frustrating.

cowboydoc · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

It's the same her Robert. I got most of my second cutting done in between rain. I've got a couple third cutting fields ready to go but it's so dang humid now that I'm going to need four or five days of good weather to cut, dry, and bale it. That just isn't happening. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

To20Chris · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

Of course the energy is not "lost" - it turns into heat, which is of little use when operating a tractor. From the point of view of a tractor, the energy is in fact lost as useful mechanical energy. The mechanical energy that doesn't make it to the drive wheels in a gear tractor also becomes heat.

I think this test is too old and the tractors not similar enough to be really meaningful. You need otherwise identical tractors - same engine, chassis, final drive, tires, etc. There are several CUTs that would be good candidates for such a test. Also, a steady-state load pull may yield different results than a pull from a stop - in the latter the "infinitely variable" gearing of an HST may be an advantage. Stick it on a chassis dyno and see what come out.

I do think that a standardized drawbar HP rating would be good to have, but most don't list this spec for CUTs. It is at least as important as PTO HP anyway.

But really, there is no need for people to get all worked up about it. Once you understand how they work, and depending on what you want to do with it, the best choice will either be obvious or it will not matter. For those whose tasks fall into the region where the two systems are both reasonably good choices, then it becomes a matter of preference. It's the same thing with the light/heavy weight issue - understand the difference and pick the one that suits your needs best.

Then make sure you jump all over anyone who picks something else! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Robert_in_NY · Jul 20, 2004

Re: Hydro power loss? 20%, not on it\'s worst day!

I am still trying to get first cutting off 70 acres for a customer. I cut 60 acres for the inlaws dairy and have 10 more on the ground to be round baled and sold to a grape farmer for cover in his grapes so that doesn't matter much if it gets rained on. I can't get the weatherman to co-operate with me to get any qood squares done. Of course I am still having fun though. Take care.