Hydraulics questions

zuiko · Mar 5, 2007

I'd like to add 2 rear circuits for controlling a hyd top link, snowblower chute, etc. Right now I have the typical two spool valve for the loader and an aux single spool valve for my 3rd loader function mounted on the fender. I think I want to install a diverter valve, but I want to get rid of the aux valve at the same time. Does that mean I would need two diverters? Do they make units that would perform both functions (divert both spools for rear and divert one spool for front on separate switches)?

Then once I get that going:

What do I have to do to clean out the lines and cylinder on an old implement before connecting them to the tractor? They've been disconnected for a number of years and could have junk in them that I probably don't want in the hydraulic system.

Should I try to prefill the lines with fluid before connecting them to the tractor?

When I disconnect the lines to the implement, will the fluid leak out of them, meaning I have to top off every time I connect and disconnect an implement?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

kennyd · Mar 5, 2007

I'd like to add 2 rear circuits for controlling a hyd top link, snowblower chute, etc. Right now I have the typical two spool valve for the loader and an aux single spool valve for my 3rd loader function mounted on the fender. I think I want to install a diverter valve, but I want to get rid of the aux valve at the same time. Does that mean I would need two diverters? Do they make units that would perform both functions (divert both spools for rear and divert one spool for front on separate switches)?

If I understand correctly, you already have on rear remote installed, and you have that plumbed to the FEL. But you need at least one more remote for the rear?
If so, your cheapest solution may be a diverter that V & M sells, look here at the Add-A-Valve:V&M Inc.

What do I have to do to clean out the lines and cylinder on an old implement before connecting them to the tractor? They've been disconnected for a number of years and could have junk in them that I probably don't want in the hydraulic system.

I would take the hoses off the cylinders, then manually operate the cylinders both ways to push the old fluid out. It'll be messy!

Should I try to prefill the lines with fluid before connecting them to the tractor?

There is no need to do that, they will self bleed when you operate the remote.

When I disconnect the lines to the implement, will the fluid leak out of them, meaning I have to top off every time I connect and disconnect an implement?

No, the QD's (quick disconnects) will keep the fluid in place. Just like when you take you FEL off.

zuiko · Mar 5, 2007

Thanks for the reply.

If I understand correctly, you already have on rear remote installed, and you have that plumbed to the FEL. But you need at least one more remote for the rear?

I have three spools on two valves right now and three circuits, but I would like to go to two spools on one valve and five circuits. I want to get rid of the stupid el cheapo valve on the fender and replace it with a diverter setup on my main two spool valve. Would something like these do the trick (with some wiring and switches) or am I missing something?

Northman Fluid Power Solenoid Valve, 1 Spool 12V DC, 4500 PSI, 16 GPM, Model# SWHG02B2D1210 |Valves | Northern Tool + Equipment
Northman Fluid Power Solenoid Valve, 2 Spool 12V DC, 4500 PSI, 16 GPM, Model# SWHG02C2D1210 |Valves | Northern Tool + Equipment

kennyd · Mar 5, 2007

The links you provided are not diverters, but electric spool valves. You certainly plumb them in place of the valve on your fender and control then with DPDT switches.

Maybe I am just not understanding yet...do you have a picture?

MadReferee · Mar 5, 2007

Let me get this straight. You want 2 spools and 5 work port circuits.

The best option for you is the V&M solution mentioned earlier but I would never run them off the loader valve. Running them off the loader valve will severly restrict what you can do simultaneously and you will need some method of controlling which circuit will be active. Also you will have a plumbing nightmare right in front of you that may or may not be even feasible to properly install.

If it was my tractor I would leave the fender mounted single spool valve and opt for the V&M solution with 3 remote connections off of the single fender mounted valve. However, the V&M products are not cheap. It would be way cheaper for you to simply get a 3 spool valve and mount it on the fender like most other aux valves.

zuiko · Mar 5, 2007

I made a diagram of what I would like to do... might help to make it more clear.

The links you provided are not diverters, but electric spool valves.

I'm not sure what the difference is then. I thought diverters were simply valves that switched flow after being activated either electrically or mechanically between a couple different paths. Unless the difference is that these require current continuously when switched while the diverters only require current to change the valve position. If I am missing something here, please clue me in.

Running them off the loader valve will severly restrict what you can do simultaneously and you will need some method of controlling which circuit will be active.

I don't see an issue with wanting to be able to use the loader simultaneously with the rear outputs (I can't look both forward and rearward at the same time anyway), and I cannot use the two loader valves simultaneously right now because both valves are mounted on the same side and not very close together.

MadReferee · Mar 5, 2007

A diverter takes one set of spool work ports and "diverts" them to one of two sets of outputs. One set in, 2 sets out. The selection takes place using a 12v switch. Diverters are not spools and they don't act like spools (ie, they don't change fluid directional flow).

A spool valve like those from Northern are not diverters. They are no different than your single spool lever operated valve except that instead of a lever you have a 12v switch.

Your proposed diagram really cannot happen as you have drawn it. You can take the loader curl/dump work ports and feed them into a diverter to control either the curl/dump or grapple. That's done all the time.

The raise/lower work ports can also feed a diverter to control either the loader raise/lower or a singe set of rear remotes. You can then use the V&M Add-A-Valve to make that single set of rear remotes 2 sets of rear remotes. You could also replace the V&M with another diverter to get the same end result. You could also get a V&M SV series 3 outlet hydraulic multiplier which would give you one in and 3 out.

However, in my professional opinion, this is probably the least optimal setup one could have. Plumbing this would be messy at best. The cost for your setup would be several times more than simply adding a 2 or 3 spool valve and we are talking about probably close to $1000 if not more. I don't recall the price of the V&M stuff but they are not cheap. A good diverter runs about $200 from Surplus Center and you will need 2 or three. Plus hoses, plus fittings. It adds up quickly.

zuiko · Mar 5, 2007

As far as diverters go, something like this?

Surplus SAE 8 15 GPM DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE 12 VDC
Surplus SAE 6 12 GPM TRIPLE SELECTOR VALVE 12 VDC

Couldn't I hook curl to the 3 way and lift to the 2 way and wire them up to a few switch controlled relays to activate the solenoids i want? If so, that's only 300 bucks before plumbing stuff... not much more than a triple valve. Electrical would be $20 tops. I wouldn't even have to buy anything there since I already got all that. Not sure how much hoses would run, but it seems like it should be considerably less than $700.

Replacing the single valve with a triple is a possibility but it is not really what I had in mind. Plumbing-wise, a big concern of mine is that the plumbing can't be buried out of the way at all... the fender will be covered in hoses going into and out of the triple valve. I already don't care much for the hoses I have on the fender with the single valve right now. Maybe this stuff could be run straight through the fender and into the wheel well... but then you are talking about more fittings and 90 degree changes of direction.

MadReferee · Mar 5, 2007

I suppose you could use those, on paper they should work.

You will still have plumbing issues to contend with though.

I don't quite understand your concern over hoses on the fender. I have a three spool Prince SV valve sitting on my rear fender and I don't have any hoses laying on the fender. In fact, I also have a third function valve going out to the loader bucket for a grapple and I don't have any problems with hoses laying everywhere. You might want to re-evaluate how your plumbing is done. Take an old garden hose cut it up and use it to route all your hoses. You will quickly see what you will have and how much hassle it will be. Don't forget that hoses can't be bent sharply. Also consider how you will be connecting to the multipliers, and how much room you will have to mount them. Figure a couple of hundred bucks or more before you are done for plumbing.

zuiko · Mar 5, 2007

Well you pretty much got me convinced to go with the triple valve setup. It would be simpler to get working and simpler is a good thing. I got a couple more questions, though.

1) This is probably tractor specific, but what do I connect these two new valves to? Do I need to buy and install a manifold or something to get the extra ports to connect these valves to the existing hydraulics on the tractor?

2) My existing single spool valve on the fender makes a lot of noise when in operation. Is this because it is too small for the flow required? Or because it's just a cheap valve (which it is)?

3) Anything in particular to look for in valves? There are lots of options out there, and without seeing them in person it seems like kind of a crap shoot as to which is better than another.

Thanks for all the help.

kennyd · Mar 5, 2007

I also think the 2 or 3 spool valve is the way to go...
As far as hoses, they can be managed like MAD said, it's all in the planning.
Here are two pictures of my 2 spool valve:

Here is a link to the whole thread:http://www.tractorbynet.com//forums/showthread.php?t=69599

You could add just a 2 spool for the rear, and a diverter on the FEL to operate your grapple, here is the thread on my install:http://www.tractorbynet.com//forums/showthread.php?t=48310, you can also find a lot more if you search for "diverter"

My existing single spool valve on the fender makes a lot of noise when in operation. Is this because it is too small for the flow required? Or because it's just a cheap valve (which it is)?

Could be just cheap, or could be to small. Do you know the specs?

Anything in particular to look for in valves? There are lots of options out there, and without seeing them in person it seems like kind of a crap shoot as to which is better than another.

The Prince SV stackable valves would work real well for your tractor.

kennyd · Mar 5, 2007

zuiko said:
1) This is probably tractor specific, but what do I connect these two new valves to? Do I need to buy and install a manifold or something to get the extra ports to connect these valves to the existing hydraulics on the tractor?

How is your 1 spooler plumbed now?

I used the JD PowerBeyond kit to hook up my remotes as detailed in the link I posted in the previous post. If this is the way way yours is now, your just need to replace the 1 spool valve with the 2 or 3 spool valve.

Some pictures of your setup would be worth a thousand words, literally!

MadReferee · Mar 5, 2007

zuiko said:
1) This is probably tractor specific, but what do I connect these two new valves to? Do I need to buy and install a manifold or something to get the extra ports to connect these valves to the existing hydraulics on the tractor?

It's one valve with 3 spools. Your existing 1-spool valve is connected in series with the loader valve. The loader valve power beyond line goes to the inlet of the new valve. The power beyond of the new valve goes to the 3pt. The tank return outlet of the new valve tees into where the loader valve tank line goes. All the plumbing can be virtually out of sight.

zuiko said:
2) My existing single spool valve on the fender makes a lot of noise when in operation. Is this because it is too small for the flow required? Or because it's just a cheap valve (which it is)?

A squealing valve indicates there is a problem inside the valve. It could be many things. My dozer valve did the same thing and it was a blowby on one of the work port relief valves.

zuiko said:
3) Anything in particular to look for in valves? There are lots of options out there, and without seeing them in person it seems like kind of a crap shoot as to which is better than another.

A 2 or 3 spool Prince SV is a great choice for your tractor.

zuiko · Mar 6, 2007

The stack valve sure looks like the way to go. How can I tell if I have #8 or #10 fittings? Would it be reasonable to assume I have #8s, given I have a pump that is only capable of 8.5gpm?

Does this look right?

1 - SVI15
3 - SVW1BA1
1 - SVE22
1 - 3 section tie rod kit

MadReferee · Mar 6, 2007

That's exactly what I have. I believe the spools are option "B" from Surplus Center.

It really doesn't matter what size fittings you have as adapters can be had to change just about anything to just about anything. BTW, a #6 is 9/16 -18, #8 is 3/4 -16 and a #10 is 7/8 - 14.

When you have pretty much figured out what you need fitting an hose wise, go to Discount Hydraulic Hose and order from them. They also have downloadable catalogs that you can use to help you choose fittings. The guy there is very helpful and can answer just about all your plumbing questions regarding hoses and fittings. Just make sure you get swivel fittings on both ends of your hoses as it will make it much easier to install.

firemanpat2910 · Mar 6, 2007

once again mad, thank you for educating us all. To any new posters out there when madreferee says " It wont work" or "In my professional opinion" you should listen too him. when he says you could do it that way but I have a better/cheaper way listen too him. I have learned alot lot on this board and when it comes to fences ask harve, when you want a pond or a lesson on rebuilding a dozer ask eddie, when you want hydraulic help ask mad.

firemanpat2910 · Apr 9, 2007

firemanpat2910 said:
once again mad, thank you for educating us all. To any new posters out there when madreferee says " It wont work" or "In my professional opinion" you should listen too him. when he says you could do it that way but I have a better/cheaper way listen too him. I have learned alot lot on this board and when it comes to fences ask harve, when you want a pond or a lesson on rebuilding a dozer ask eddie, when you want hydraulic help ask mad.

WE WILL MISS YOU

rback33 · Apr 9, 2007

firemanpat2910 said:
WE WILL MISS YOU

AMEN BROTHER.

As soon as I saw this thread I thought of him and as I was reading i realized it was an older thread he had posted in already.... I think my standard answer for hydraulics questions will be to search for posts by mad cuz you will find the answer there somewhere.... I d@mn near cried as I got to the bottom of the thread.