Hydraulic Issues Continued

Beaverplt · May 18, 2022

I've started threads about my issues with the hydraulics on my L225 before. Each time, with your help, I think I've solved it. Alas, I easily fool myself.

I have an L225 with an FEL that is an occasional use tractor for us. Mostly spring and fall when working on mulching or cleaning up gardens. Over the past few years, the hydraulics will simply stop working. It has happened during use and on startup. Because weeks or sometimes months can go by without use, I've never been able to pin down what was happening when they fail. When I started documenting it, I've found a pattern. Each time it has happened in the past two years, the tractor is parked on a hill with the frontend uphill. When I get it to a level surface, everything will eventually work again. I check the trans hydraulic fluid level every time and it's never low. Considering I live on a hill, I would like to solve this problem.
Something I am wondering about. The hydraulic pump is slightly forward of the center of the tractor on the right side. When on a hill it is higher than the transmission. Could the pump be too small or too weak to pull fluid through and end up sucking air? Any thoughts are appreciated.

rScotty · May 18, 2022

Beaverplt said:
I've started threads about my issues with the hydraulics on my L225 before. Each time, with your help, I think I've solved it. Alas, I easily fool myself.

I have an L225 with an FEL that is an occasional use tractor for us. Mostly spring and fall when working on mulching or cleaning up gardens. Over the past few years, the hydraulics will simply stop working. It has happened during use and on startup. Because weeks or sometimes months can go by without use, I've never been able to pin down what was happening when they fail. When I started documenting it, I've found a pattern. Each time it has happened in the past two years, the tractor is parked on a hill with the frontend uphill. When I get it to a level surface, everything will eventually work again. I check the trans hydraulic fluid level every time and it's never low. Considering I live on a hill, I would like to solve this problem.
Something I am wondering about. The hydraulic pump is slightly forward of the center of the tractor on the right side. When on a hill it is higher than the transmission. Could the pump be too small or too weak to pull fluid through and end up sucking air? Any thoughts are appreciated.

hose are both possibilities. The fluid could simply be low at some angles.
Or yes, the hydraulic pump could be too worn to put a enough vacuum on the intake line to pull in some fluid.

Though from what you are seeing it sounds to me like a simple case of "don't do that". Don't park on a hill with the nose uphill.

I'm thinking that when you do that, the fluid in the intake pipe from pump to transmission case is flowng back into the the transmission ..... leaving the pump no oil to use to seal its surfaces. Without having oil in the pump, that hydraulic pump isn't very efficient. I guess you could prime it and get it going that way....but otherwise the pump is just going to seem weak until it finally purges the air from the system and starts getting a reliable oil supply to the intake of the pump.

Here's another idea....along the same line. You may have a suction leak in the filter or intake line. Those won't leak when running, but will when parked.
Most all tractor hydraulic pumps pull their oil supply from the sump through a suction side hydraulic oil filter and from there through an intake line to the pressure pump. On some, that hydraulic oil filter is supposed to have an anti-drainback flapper valve. You may have a filter without a non-functional valve...or maybe an aftermarket filter without a valve at all. An airleak in that end connections on your steel intake line to the pump is a possibility too. Especially if it ever been off or had a section of intake pipe replaced.. Steel intake suction lines that have had a section of rubber hose added are always a problem.
good luck,
rScotty

loggin · May 19, 2022

Beaverplt said:
I've started threads about my issues with the hydraulics on my L225 before. Each time, with your help, I think I've solved it. Alas, I easily fool myself.

I have an L225 with an FEL that is an occasional use tractor for us. Mostly spring and fall when working on mulching or cleaning up gardens. Over the past few years, the hydraulics will simply stop working. It has happened during use and on startup. Because weeks or sometimes months can go by without use, I've never been able to pin down what was happening when they fail. When I started documenting it, I've found a pattern. Each time it has happened in the past two years, the tractor is parked on a hill with the frontend uphill. When I get it to a level surface, everything will eventually work again. I check the trans hydraulic fluid level every time and it's never low. Considering I live on a hill, I would like to solve this problem.
Something I am wondering about. The hydraulic pump is slightly forward of the center of the tractor on the right side. When on a hill it is higher than the transmission. Could the pump be too small or too weak to pull fluid through and end up sucking air? Any thoughts are appreciated.

I also operate on fairly steep slopes and have found that keeping the hydraulic fluid about a quarter inch above the full mark, or at least to the max height, helps to keep the pump fed with oil.

Beaverplt · May 19, 2022

Once I got the tractor back to a level surface, the issue resolved itself. It took 24 hours, but at least I can get going again. Part of what baffles me is this only started happening about 6 years ago. I've owned the tractor for 28 years. (Good Lord, I guess that makes me old). I will look for leaks near the pump. I do have a small leak on one cylinder, but it's not enough to rebuild it, yet. I'll post back when and if I find anything. Thanks to all

Beaverplt · Aug 5, 2022

Well, I tried the "don't do that" method and have had a great spring and summer with the tractor. I've needed more than ever with skidding out dead trees along with the usual garden duties that SWMBO puts me through. Today, however, the "don't do that" method didn't work. Parked with the front end facing slightly downhill the FEL would not work. I once again checked my fluid level and it's ok. I'll add some more trans hydraulic fluid to see if that helps. Plus, I'll take rScotty's advice and do some more thorough detective work.

rScotty · Aug 5, 2022

Well, the L225 is getting back to the era where most Japanese Compacts had a cleanable screen filter and also a spin on filter. Both on the suction side between the sump and intake to the hydraulic pump.

Now I'm wondering if the L225 had a cleanable screen filter and if it needs attention. We keep seeing that the older ones with cleanable screens did tend to sludge up over time. Especially older manual transmission models with water entering past the floor-mounted shift levers.

Beaverplt · Aug 5, 2022

I'll look into that. I have two filters that I switch back and forth. They are really easy to clean but having two lets me do each one very thoroughly. Usually I do that yearly, but now that I think about it, I didn't do it this past spring. The filter is never real dirty, but it's worth looking into. The only spin on filters are the oil and fuel filters.

rScotty · Aug 5, 2022

Beaverplt said:
Well, I tried the "don't do that" method and have had a great spring and summer with the tractor. I've needed more than ever with skidding out dead trees along with the usual garden duties that SWMBO puts me through. Today, however, the "don't do that" method didn't work. Parked with the front end facing slightly downhill the FEL would not work. I once again checked my fluid level and it's ok. I'll add some more trans hydraulic fluid to see if that helps. Plus, I'll take rScotty's advice and do some more thorough detective work.

Beaverplt said:
. I've owned the tractor for 28 years. (Good Lord, I guess that makes me old). I will look for leaks near the pump. I do have a small leak on one cylinder, but it's not enough to rebuild it, yet. I'll post back when and if I find anything. Thanks to all

Shucks, it makes you nearly as old as the tractor. By now that's getting to be a bond. Sort of like our old JD. Have you decided that it is a keeper yet?

Just kicking around some ideas..... and thinking about pumps....

We've got one shallow well on our place that we use for some irrigation and a pump that the specs claim will pull water up from 17 feet or more. Or I guess to be technically correct I should say that pump lowers the air pressure enough within the pump rotor cavity enough so that atmospheric pressure PUSHES the water up from the well and into to the pump.....except it doesn't. It never did. Nice pump, but the advertising was optomistic.

So what I did was put a 6" standpipe on the "Tee" fitting there right at the inlet to the pump.To prime with the standpipe, unscrew the cap, pour in a pint of water, put the cap back on. Now start the pump and about half the time it is off and running. If not, repeat.

Of course a hydraulic pump shouldn't need a standpipe to prime it - although putting on a temporary standpipe fitting would be an intriguing way to trouble shoot a suction line leak in a tractor hydraulic system. If a standpipe worked, diagnosing tractor suction line leakage would jump to the head of the list.

Of course a tractor hydraulic pump - a young one anyway - ought to last forever and always have clearances and driving shaft seals that are tight enough to pull oil from the sump. But yours is pushing 50 years old and so there is at least a chance it is pulling in some suction line air past either through leak in the suction line itself - or possibly past it's internal pump drive shaft seal. That seal is a fairly common problem.

Either way I bet you can find it. And easier than a tractor with an glitch in the engine computer.

rScotty

Beaverplt · Aug 6, 2022

"Shucks, it makes you nearly as old as the tractor. By now that's getting to be a bond. Sort of like our old JD. Have you decided that it is a keeper yet?

Thanks for the compliment. I'm 20 years older than the tractor. If I threw it away today, I got my money's worth out of it. I'm thinking (or hoping) there might be a rebuild kit for the pump. If I can rebuild a Honda small engine, a pump should be a piece of cake. If not, spending a few bucks on a used or new one, if I can find it, would be money well spent.

Beaverplt · May 22, 2023

So, I'm back with the same old problem. I needed to move several yards of mulch but the hydraulics on "Bubba" (Swmbo's name for it) would do nothing. I've attempted several times over the past four days and still nothing. I have for the past few years thought this is a problem with the FEL. It dawned on me today that it's not just the loader. My three point hitch does not raise either. The filter is clean. The transhydraulic fluid is only a year old. I'm totally lost at this point. Any ideas? Thanks

oldnslo · May 22, 2023

Do hear any noise at all that is unusual or different when trying to operate the FEL or 3 point? Possible sound like water rushing out of a garden hose..

Depending on how they are made it is possible pump is losing prime after sitting for a period of time but not real common. The way to Check for that is to crack a fitting open on the outlet or pressure line of the pump, then turn engine over to see if any oil comes out. If you mechanical fuel shut off easy to keep engine from starting.

Beaverplt · May 22, 2023

I haven't heard any unusual noises. I can easily open the fitting on the outflow side of the pump. i'll try that tomorrow.

rScotty · May 23, 2023

Beaverplt said:
So, I'm back with the same old problem. I needed to move several yards of mulch but the hydraulics on "Bubba" (Swmbo's name for it) would do nothing. I've attempted several times over the past four days and still nothing. I have for the past few years thought this is a problem with the FEL. It dawned on me today that it's not just the loader. My three point hitch does not raise either. The filter is clean. The transhydraulic fluid is only a year old. I'm totally lost at this point. Any ideas? Thanks

I'd get a 5000 psi pressure gauge, a hydraulic Tee, and the fittings to put that gauge in the pressure line on the output of the hydraulic pump. Cost about $50 on Amazon. See if you have any pressure.

Please DO NOT simply loosen connectors to see if they leak without incredible precaustions. Make sure tractor cannot start. Use some serious shielding. Hydraulic spray from a loose connection can cut like a knife and happens instantly. Do a google search and read up on that danger before doing any hydraulic leak tests yourself. It's Very Scary stuff. You cannot be too careful with hydraulic pressure. More dangerous than a cobra. An invisible thin spray can penetrate the skin and cost a limb or worse.
Please do not put Swmbo in danger.

Usually when the system completely stops working without weird noises it is a suction line leak. Some aged connection is letting air into the line somewhere between the output of the cleanable filter in the transmission and the input to the hydraulic pump.

If so, you can often find it because the area of the leak will be wet with oil after sitting overnight.

rScotty

oldnslo · May 23, 2023

Rscotty
You are 100% correct on high pressure leaks being dangerous. In this case there is no pressure since nothing is moving which points towards a flow loss. Intention was to see if pump lost prime either from air leak in inlet or from sitting over time and oil drained back to tank.

This is an open center system so will be low pressure until a function is activated.

LouNY · May 23, 2023

We often tend to fill hydraulics above the full line living and working on steep hills over full works better then almost full. It does sound like a suction leak to the pump as well as the possibility of pump wear contributing to a weaker suction so less priming capability.

Beaverplt · May 23, 2023

Today I loosened the bolts on the outflow side of the pump. Turned off the fuel and cranked the starter. With it being on open center system I wasn't worried about a high pressure spray, but I did make sure all the levers were in a neutral position. There was a brief pause, then a gush of fluid. Perhaps the pause was an air pocket? I tightened it up and started the tractor. The hydraulics worked fine.
I'm looking for possible air leaks. I recently repaired one of the lift cylinders on the FEL and the other 3 are good. One area I should look at closer is the PTO. I don't use it, so I tend to forget about it. Thanks guys for the assistance. I'll let you know if I find anything.

rScotty · May 23, 2023

Beaverplt said:
Today I loosened the bolts on the outflow side of the pump. Turned off the fuel and cranked the starter. With it being on open center system I wasn't worried about a high pressure spray, but I did make sure all the levers were in a neutral position. There was a brief pause, then a gush of fluid. Perhaps the pause was an air pocket? I tightened it up and started the tractor. The hydraulics worked fine.
I'm looking for possible air leaks. I recently repaired one of the lift cylinders on the FEL and the other 3 are good. One area I should look at closer is the PTO. I don't use it, so I tend to forget about it. Thanks guys for the assistance. I'll let you know if I find anything.

Real interesting - especially about the brief pause followed by flow. BTW, thanks both for the follow-up and also for being cognizant of my high pressure spray concerns. I experienced a spray once.

Not sure how the suction line is built on your tractor. On mine there is a short steel tubing at the filter and the same at the pump with a rubber hose section clamped to connect them. Lots are that way, and the rubber gets old and starts leaking from invisible cracks on the inside surface of the rubber where it slides over the tubing.

The diagnostic is seeing oil wetness at the end of the hose. Not enough to drip, just enough to wet the hose and tubing. Worth checking.

rScotty

oldnslo · May 23, 2023

Beaverplt said:
Today I loosened the bolts on the outflow side of the pump. Turned off the fuel and cranked the starter. With it being on open center system I wasn't worried about a high pressure spray, but I did make sure all the levers were in a neutral position. There was a brief pause, then a gush of fluid. Perhaps the pause was an air pocket? I tightened it up and started the tractor. The hydraulics worked fine.
I'm looking for possible air leaks. I recently repaired one of the lift cylinders on the FEL and the other 3 are good. One area I should look at closer is the PTO. I don't use it, so I tend to forget about it. Thanks guys for the assistance. I'll let you know if I find anything.

That test does point towards your pump losing prime now the challenging part is to determine why and or where this is happening. If pump is dead quiet during operation any inlet air leak is small or you would hear the pump cavitate which is similar sound to a rock crusher.

If pump is getting worn I would expect some performance loss like wouldn’t lift a bucket of dirt.

Now that it is working a quick simple test for worn pump is dead head a function for 10 - 15 seconds and then immediately feel the pump housing to see if significantly warmer than the inlet and outlet lines. A worn slipping pump will get warm pretty quick. If you have thermal heat gun they work also and won’t get burnt fingers..

wdchyd · May 24, 2023

The proper flow/load meter temporarily installed inline just after pump (or before the first valve) would tell you instantly if it’s the pump or something else downstream.