HST Transmission

Libertine · Jan 10, 2004

Tractors4u:

Been accused of posting too many "depressing" subjects. Thought I would go the other way.

JEH

_RaT_ · Jan 10, 2004

I'm not sure I follow you on the dragging a heavy object up a hill. My tractor with HST (I have a manual, a shuttle and a HST tractor) would only creep ever so little if the engine quit. That coupled with 4WD which the brakes would effectively lock all 4 wheels to the ground would eliminate any of those concerns, but it could also be that I'm missing something here.

Most folks here are enthutiastic about Arnold. Yesterday at his first budget/press interviews he did what most considered to be a superb job of answering the media questions. The answers were very non politician like and that was alone inspiring. He even got politically incorrect and mentioned sitting down and smoking cigars with others to discuss the options. Wow, publicly saying he would smoke a cigar. Pretty Cool!

JerryG · Jan 10, 2004

the wet shuttle clutch works very, very well 
That is one of the reason that I bought a power shuttle. I do a LOT of composting in tight quarters. I can put it in a slower gear and just keep going by flipping the lever back and forth, without wearing a standard clutch. The fluid immersed clutches will wears a lot longer than than regular clutches.

thcri · Jan 10, 2004

I would have to agree with Rat here. What are the safety issues with Hydro. If my tractor quits is does hold pretty good for a while. Plenty of time to get my foot on the brakes. I just reach over put in neutral and restart, shift to lower gear and go. If a manual stops on a hill it will start going back down even in a mid range gear. The only way it wouldn't is if it was in the lower gears which it shouldn't have quit anyway in the lower gear. On a manual as soon as one pushes in the clutch to start you are rolling unless you have your foot on the brake pretty good of course, but once running then you have to let the clutch out while holding the brakes and a lot of people do have trouble with that, especially people that don't have a lot of experience. I guess again my question is, Where does the safety issue come from. I hate standard transmissions, always have and always will and Hydro is for me not for any safety issue but just from the ease of use. Gee a lot of manual rigs out there keep going when you fall off the seat and if you even got a seat safety switch just the motor running itself down keeps itself going enough to do harm. Hydro would stop immediately in my case at least.

just my two cents.

murph

JerryG · Jan 10, 2004

thcri,
A manual on a tractor is not like a manual in a car or truck. If you was to stop on a steep hill, you don't have to give it the fuel as you let off of the clutch. You put it in the right gear and then let the clutch out. It will go without worrying about the fuel and feathering the clutch. And yes, you do have to have it in the right gear.
Talking manual and hydro transmissions on TBN should be classified as politics. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Old_Hickory · Jan 10, 2004

I have stalled mine on 25% grades and never had one roll fast,it will move some but not fast enough you do not have time to get your foot on the brake or set the parking brake if needed or drop the blade/loader.Have a gear tractor stall on a hill you have to either put it in neutral and or engage the clutch and start it again,I think you have more of a chance of it rolling with the clutch in on a gear tractor if you do not get your foot on the break quick enough. I have had my foot slip off the clutch on a hillside and cause the tractor to "pop a wheely" if you are not careful.

thcri · Jan 10, 2004

Jerry,

I guess I would agree with that. But you still have to push the clutch in to even start most standard tractors. My question to the whole thing is where does the safety issue come in that is more on a Hydro than a Clutch. To me the Hydro definantly is not more dangerous. And yes it is politics am I am not questioning anybody having one or the other. Some people like standard transmission and that is great and fine with me. I just would like someone to point out to me as one previous poster said that hydro is more dangerous, where??????

yellowsocks93 · Jan 10, 2004

I'm a gear type guy myself and with my JD 990 you don't need to press in the clutch in to start it and I don't. I only press the clutch in to start older tractors at work just be be on the safe side. Some may not have working neutral start switches and most are pretty big tractors so it's best to be extra careful. Once when I was real young with my grandpa's JD 214 garden tractor it slipped out of 3rd gear and my feet were not long enough to reach the clutch and brake at the same time and I almost lost control going down the hill in reverse. Now if I am on hills with a real tractor I give it a little gas with the hand throttle and it goes up pretty easy. I don't find hydros to be any more dangerous than a manual. I think if people are just more careful of what they are doing and not listening to the radio headphones while operating equipment more accidents could be prevented.

JerryG · Jan 10, 2004

Murph,
I didn't have anything to say about the safety thing. I am one of the ones that just like a standard as in shuttles. I have drove hydro's and I just don't like them period. If someone does that is fine with me, they can have them. What I can't understand is how defensive some people get about those of us that do like standards. I don't like hydros, don't have any use for them and don't like the way they sound, operate or anything else, but I don't hold it against anyone that does like them or try to make them look stupid because they do.

thcri · Jan 10, 2004

No Jerry you didn't say, it was a previous poster that said they were dangerous. And I just don't see where they are dangerous any more than the standard. When it really comes down to it most accidents happen because the operator wasn't doing the right thing. He was doing something unsafe. And Hydro is no more unsafe than standard. I appreciate the fact that you like standard. There is nothing wrong with them, I believe that is a personal preference.

murph

Darren · Jan 10, 2004

I think it comes down to what's suitable for the job. Manufacturers aren't going to put something on the market that will kill them on warranty costs nor are they going to introduce something in a limited demand market. While we're talking about hydro transmissions in this post, fluid power drives have expanded since they were introduced. With the exception of the biggest wheeled construction equipment which often uses electric motors in the wheel hubs, like locomotives using motorized axles, the rest use fluid power drives.

You won't find any rock haulers with geared transmissions running the long grades out of open pit mines. With that kind of investment, it usually gets worked more than one shift per day. Of course you're talking a lot more horsepower than farm tractors. Eventually farm tractors, even the monsters that are intended only for pulling implements will have them. One of the problems is not heat but economies of scale. JD isn't building millions of 400+ hp tractors. Tractors have working lives far longer than a car or light truck. The investment to develop a hydro for the limited numbers of high hp tractors won't happen at the beginning. You'll see hydros move up the line over time. Each step capitalizing on the last.

I can remember when seeing an automatic in a pickup was unusual. Three on the tree was what you saw if not a four speed. Now it's the other way around. I bet there are way more trucks built with autos than manual transmissions.

Even when you move up the scale into medium duty trucks, especially if it involves stop and go traffic, you'll find automatics. Look over some of the used truck papers and try to find a garbage truck with a manual trans. You won't. If the stop and go driving isn't a heat generator, I don't know what is.

Hydros in bigger tractors are just a matter of time.

JDgreen227 · Jan 10, 2004

Good point on the medium duty truck/automatic issue. I drove them for over 30 years for my employer, who usually replaced them at 120-150,000 miles. Had five diesels since 1983, all with automatics. Much mileage was stop and go city operation, PTO work and fast idling for hours at a time. The techs at the garage said the automatics were much more reliable than a standard shift truck, given the same type of truck and use. They also claimed it was easier on the engines because the automatics made it hard for a novice to lug or overrev the diesels. Just my two cents worth.

Bird · Jan 10, 2004

( techs at the garage said the automatics were much more reliable )

Quite a few years ago, the City of Dallas learned the same thing about police cars (first automatics were 1969), pickups, and even the big trucks (garbage trucks changed to automatic transmissions and instead of a PTO, they put a fan belt driven hydraulic pump on to work the packers). Greatly reduced maintenance costs and downtime.

dieselsmoke1 · Jan 10, 2004

I own an HST in a CUT and love it. Cannot beat it for the utility and maintenance work I use it for.

Cowboydoc and I don't agree on many points, but I'll side with him here.

In my experience farming a large acerage, I wouldn't consider an HST piece for ground tillage work. The numbers and experience rating simply do not support it.

I've owned combines with HST which served well with no problems.....but they weren't pulling a 13 tooth chiesl plow or a 21' disc.

I can't speak to hydro temps under a constant load, never had one. The 20 % drop in rated drawbar HP was enough to convince me it wasn't the best choice for tillage.

In my farming days, the TA's, Multipower, etc. was the best tradeoff. Maybe technology has changed that now. Does anyone have any up to date studys that show the efficiency of hydros?

del · Jan 11, 2004

Your question bought back a funny (not at the time) memory.

After I recently purchased a JD CUT I went through the operating
manual. Even posted about some goofy parts of it.
I was even quiet when some clug basically posted that
basically only Yuppies read their manuals./forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Well I'm proud to say I'm not young, urban, or "professional"
whatever that means. (Sometimes wish I was some
of those) Tractors are just
too different these days from each other to think you know
what's what going from one to another, they'll surprise you.

When I bought my other tractor, a Kubota L35 with GST, not a
hydro but with a hydraulic shifter, I didn't open the book I
wanted to go see how it worked too much.

Parked it on a gradual hill. Checked that it wouldn't move
"in gear". Got off and went to do something 20 feet away.
Had been off a couple of minutes and /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gifHEY THERE GOES THE TRACTOR!!!!

I should have read that manual first as well, that initial feeling
that it's "in gear" goes away after it bleeds down.

I have a distrust of parking brakes so I trust only
my gear Ford to be abandoned on a hill.

del

del · Jan 11, 2004

Fellow TBNers,

I've been following this post and have a question.

Can someone define what a "real" farmer is. If you make
10 cents from growing a stalk of corn, or even make -10cents
and give it to charity, if you till the soil and grow ANYTHING aren't you a "REAL" farmer?

I don't think you have be Archer Daniels Midland to call
yourself a farmer. I know a few people who have 5 10 20 and
on up acres that if asked to leave a meeting at the grange
hall because they weren't "real" farmers might send the
requester to a "real" doctor.

You don't need thousands of acres to get an HST hot (if they
even DO get too hot) If it doesn't get hot after a couple of
hours, probably a lot less, it isn't going to if load isn't
increased.

The only difference I see is that for lots of constant speed
farming (or anything else) an HST probably isn't worth the
extra money and power loss. IMHO.

stick, GST, HST owner. All have their uses.

I hope all of you are using either metal or rubber
tracked machines. We ALL know how unuseable TIRE
tractors are /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

del

_RaT_ · Jan 11, 2004

That made me laugh Del. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Let's see, a real farmer, I mean a REAL farmer is probably a guy not cruising the internet. Not because he can't, but becasue theres not enough time in the day to have such a luxury. On the other hand, if you plant any kind of crop in any amount and desire to be a farmer, my hats off to you.

DieselSmoke. I agree with you about the ground engaging implements, I stated much the same back a few pages. If you tasks involve heavy ripping, I would select a manual tractor. I think for many compact owners it's safe to say our tasks are pretty general and versatility is the priority. For those uses a HST works well, but then, so do shuttle shifts. Manuals are fine too like the collar shifts, but I've been spoiled and would at least opt for a shuttle tractor. After using my neighbors JD 790, I am well convinced of that. He on the hand uses my tractor and is convinced someday he's going to upgrade. Just going to a shuttle over the collar shift is a giant step. In the meantime, is little 790 works well for his needs of mowing and light loader use. Rat...

MossRoad · Jan 11, 2004

Can someone define what a "real" farmer is. 

Probably someone that makes the majority of their income from farming operations.... something that most TBN members do not do. I personally only know one real farmer. He is a dairy farmer and his kids are dairy farmers. They own about 15-20 tractors between them... pretty sure none of them are HST. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

He farms about 800 acres to supply his herd. I don't know how many acres the kids have at their farms. They work non stop most of the year and the only vacation they ever took was the week of the 4H fair... if you want to call it a vacation... they ran home to do the chores... its like their vacation means double the work load and they enjoy it. They have a beautiful pond back in the woods that they let me fish on. They never use it because they have no time to enjoy it. Their main concerns about their machinery is the ability for it to get the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible and their ability to repair it in as little time as possible in the field, or at worst, in their repair shops. They can take care of all of their tractors from the exhaust flapper down to the tires. They hire no work out and do it all themselves.

The old guy "retired" last year... now he only works about 56 hours a week for his kids. That's a real farmer /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cowboydoc · Jan 11, 2004

I'm glad you can laugh and make fun of real farmers Rat. First of all Rat every farmer I know looks at the internet every single day. They look at market prices, compare seeds, look at new farming techniques, look at GPS info., etc. etc. And yeah farmers just like everyone else need a break from the daily grind. For the serious farmer the internet is a vital tool. Most all producers do business online and monitor when to buy and sell. My grandfather is 89 years old and spends 2-3 hours a day doing business for the Angus association and monitoring all his operations online and keeping up with anything new that can make his operation better. Many of the farming programs are online as well. I spend about an hour a day looking at things. It used to be I logged on here as a little getaway just to talk about things with some good guys. Most of those guys are gone now or don't post anymore because of this very thing.

As far as a "real farmer" del I guess if you have to ask you wouldn't understand. What you or Rat would consider a "real" farmer though just slaps in the face most of the guys that put it on the line. Would you be willing to put everything you own up for collateral every year and borrow your net worth to get your crop in? Would work for nothing for a year or longer when crops are down? Would you go out in subzero weather and put your hands up in a downed cow to turn a breached calf? Do you get up everyday at 5am and go do chores for 2 or 3 hours in subzero weather every day, day and night?, Are you going to work for 3 or 4 days straight with no sleep going 24 hours a day because you need to get a crop in? And are you going to give up your vacations and everything else that it takes to make it? And this doesn't even include all the knowledge needed.

You know I do all my own horseshoeing but I don't consider myself a horseshoer, I do most of my own training but I don't consider myself a horse trainer, I manage my own stocks and bonds but I don't consider myself a stock broker, you know I do my electric too Rat so does that make me an electrician? Anybody can do a little bit of something but that sure as heck doesn't make them an expert or even give them the right to be called that profession. Just because you can plant a few seeds and get a little crop does not make you a farmer. I mean you guys think this farming is so easy. I just don't get it. You read a little on the internet and a couple books and think you're an expert. I know some of you guys have a farming background and you understand. But those of you that don't you have no idea what goes into a "real" farming operation or even what it takes just to get a crop today. Any of you are welcome to come over this spring and let me know how to setup the planter, what rate to apply fertilizer, what rate to seed, how deep, when the soil is right, what seed to use for what ground, what ground speed to go, how to figure my rows, how to make the turns, how to setup my spray tanks, etc. etc. I'm glad you can laugh at what a "real" farmer is.

JDgreen227 · Jan 11, 2004

Your description is a good way to define a "real" farmer. The fellow who farms the operation a half mile down the road from me has a huge herd of cows, several hundred acres, and sells feed also. Although I don't know him personally I am sure he could define what a "real farmer" is.

Sad to say, that man is probably too busy earning his living to waste time on that or spend hours on TBN like I do. My dad did some farming in the mid 50's to early 60's, and I really admire anyone who can earn their living farming, especially today.