HST Transmission

art · Jan 9, 2004

Wow! do to circumstances this post is or has been carried away! Sorry Dave! The retail price for a 6800 hyraulic shuttle is just under 29000 standard. There are some options that might be not mentioned or on that tractor that aren't included. I think you will like the tactor but offer him a price that you would feel right with.

_RaT_ · Jan 9, 2004

"Funny thing is in the John Deere and Kubota brochures that I picked up they both extolled the virtues of the shuttle shift tractors for loader work and HST for other things! "

I've read this comment once before so I just had to check my various Kubota brochures that I have accumulated and would argue that at least from the Kubota brochure's (L30's, L4610 and the L10's up to the L4310) there is no reference extolling the virtues of loader work with FST or GST (both shuttle tractors) especialy as a direct comparision to HST. While they mention how well shuttle FST or GST work for various tasks, it seems to be drawing that conclusion when based or compared to a fully manual transmission. Very few of us would argue that, shuttles are slick. For HST, it is mentioned that they can tackle any task and with the least amount of shock and vibration and greatest operator convenience. I would specifically reserve the manuals for tasks that would involve pulling a ripper(s) for long extened periods of time day after day. The question is, how many folks here do that? For what I think most of the folks do here with their tractors, HST would work very well, but then the other transmissions do as well. It really is a case of to each his own as you mention. Our "job" here is simply to help educate those that ask the questions with our various levels of knowledge and experience we have. Hopefully, sometimes it helps. Rat...

slowzuki · Jan 9, 2004

Ok so on a shuttle tractor if I drive into a pile and don't hit the reverser at the right time it should stall or spin the tires right? I 've only used a shuttle/glide shift tractor in one direction, going up and down the gears without clutch.

I only have a gear tractor to use and when doing precise stuff and loader work on hills it isn't the best tool.

When trying to position stuff it is jerky even with a smooth clutch and 1st gear. You slip the clutch to move part way over a stump or dip in the ground then dump the clutch and grab the brakes to hold it before it rolls anywhere.

It is going to be interesting building my timber frame hoisting members up with it....
Ken

JerryG · Jan 9, 2004

Rat,
I do love my power shuttle, most days I use the lever only. But then some days I just regress back to using the clutch without thinking about it. Yes, there is a slight lag most of the time. If I am doing heavy loader work in tight quarters, for some reason it doesn't seem like there is any lag or very very little.

Tractors4u · Jan 9, 2004

The Deere works just like you discribed the New Holland. Any throttle speed in any gear. Also the Deere has a switch that you can flip and have a choice of two reverser speeds. It affects how quickly/gently that the tractor changes direction.

Libertine · Jan 9, 2004

Tractors4u:

I don't have a problem with HST, but I honestly prefer gear with shuttle. If there were no such thing as shuttle shift I would probably have an HST. The thing that irks me a little is the HST fanaticism. 

Amen.

There's no connection from the engine to the rubber using HST when the engine is off - physical reality - no engine compression to help hold tractor on hill - unarguable. It takes more "work" to transmit power thru a fluid medium than thru gears - physical reality - "work" generates heat - a law of physics. etc. etc. etc. I don't know if cowboydoc's comments are correct about particular tractors, but they sure are consistent with reality. Laws of physics supercede religious fanaticism.

JEH

art · Jan 9, 2004

Andy most tractor companies are fighting over the use of hydro-electrics or just a lever. Deere has made the commitment to chart the new waters in the compacts with hydro-electric controls vs the manual ones. Some day we will know for sure the long term price. I guess if you are to buy a new one more often the switches, controllers,computers real cost will never bother you. Today, here we are finding that many of the farmers are requesting more manual controls do to the electronic problems being had with there bigger tractors. Mind you in this area we only sell a few new articulate tractors a year but many in the 100 to 200 horsepower range.

_RaT_ · Jan 9, 2004

"There's no connection from the engine to the rubber using HST when the engine is off - physical reality - no engine compression to help hold tractor on hill - unarguable. It takes more "work" to transmit power thru a fluid medium than thru gears - physical reality - "work" generates heat - a law of physics. etc. etc. etc."

Conversely, it is this very idea that makes the HST so versatile while the engine is on. Instant braking and speed control. While the tractor wil creep ever so slightly on a hill, it also is what allows the tractor to come to a complete stop with no brakes and also what allows one to have virtually instant forward/reverse action. That viscous coupling is precisely one of the reasons why the HST does what it does so very well. I look at parking a tractor on a hill with the engine off a job well done by the parking brake. Rat... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MossRoad · Jan 9, 2004

There's no connection from the engine to the rubber using HST when the engine is off - physical reality - no engine compression to help hold tractor on hill - unarguable. 

Then why can't you move my HST when the engine is off? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

slowrev · Jan 9, 2004

MossRoad,
There is still a fluid connection between engine and transmission unless a fluid bypass arrangment is in place.
Never thought of it before but I guess you can't pull start a Hydro ? A definate disadvantage for a diesel in cold weather /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Tractors4u · Jan 9, 2004

Grimreaper how did you change your User ID?

art · Jan 9, 2004

When the tractors are shut off the hydraulic system is still charged. After some time they do drain out and then your tractor can be rolled. What ever you do, don't tow it unless the range lever is in neutral. More people ruin hydro's from towing them then use will. The hydraulic pump to charge the system only runs off the engine so it is not working when being towed and the parts dry up real quick!

MossRoad · Jan 9, 2004

Yeah, I know... there is no physical connection(hence, the smirkey face /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif). There is a bypass pedal that you can push with your heel when starting the engine. This takes the load off the pump so the engine can crank without having to push the hydraulic fluid. If you don't push that pedal, especially in cold weather, the starter isn't going to turn fast enough to start the engine.

And if the range selector is in neutral, the unit can roll with the engine off. That's why I park it in low range with the parking brakes set and the bucket down. As long as the range selector is engaged, you can't move the unit when the engine is off.

From the little experience I have, I have found that the HST in this old International Harvestor runs very warm when under constant load. If I am doing loader work, it runs much cooler as I am constantly changing speeds and directions. Completely unscientific observation, but just what I have noticed.

art · Jan 9, 2004

Can't say that when things are being used that they won't make heat. Many of the new tractors today you have to be careful when checking the fluid because of the heat.

MossRoad · Jan 9, 2004

Yes, my owner's manual gives very specific instructions on towing this unit. You also have to add quite a bit of hydraulic fluid before you tow it, then drain it back down to operating level before running it again.

Someting else that was mentioned was creeping. Mine will creep when the pedals are centered... sometimes. Sometimes it will not. This is dangerous. I don't think the thing is out of adjustment, I think it is worn out. And I don't think I will ever put any money into it, as the re-sale value is so low. I will just drive it into the ground, then turn it over to the salvage guy. Parts are very hard to locate for late 70's HST IH tranny, or so they tell me at the repair place. Of course, I don't know if the tranny will ever give out. It hasn't yet. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I haven't run it for a few years. I need to get it out of my garage. Fluid/fliter changes and such... bad tire stems on fluid filled tires, too. Yucky mess to deal with. Hopefully it is just the valves and not the stems. The tires are huge and I don't think I could safely move them myself, etc... lots of work and more important things to do, like kid's basketball games, cheerleading, ice fishing and surfing TBN! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

MossRoad · Jan 9, 2004

Can't say that when things are being used that they won't make heat. Many of the new tractors today you have to be careful when checking the fluid because of the heat. 

Oh, I know... it's just an observation that it gets very warm when under constant load, like driving at the same speed for a few hours while running the brushhog. It runs much cooler when moving back and forth, like doing loader work or hauling brush and trees around or box scraping. This was something that Doc mentioned and I tend to agree, just from my own non-farming experience. It has no temp gauge on the tranny fluid, so how hot it gets, I don't know. It just becomes unbearable in the cab while brush hogging, but not bad when doing other tasks.

My new PT425 is much smaller and it will heat up, too. You don't want to mess with the quick connects without gloves right after running the mower... you'll burn yourself on the hot metal. I'd like to get a temp gauge for the hydraulics, but the only ones I've seen are pretty expensive.

Anyone have any leads on reasonably priced hydraulic temperature gauges?

JerryG · Jan 9, 2004

I don't know, but I would say that any automotive or truck transmission temperature gauge would work. But the big if is if you could find a place that it would fit.

cowboydoc · Jan 9, 2004

Any farm store will have them Moss.

_RaT_ · Jan 10, 2004

Jerry, my first time using hydraulic shuttle shift always involved the clutch. I had no operators manual and the owner of the tractor, a Kubota L4850 did not know either. After using it a few hours, I began to get it through my head that this thing is going to forward and reverse so smooth that I'm going to try shifting the shuttle with no clutch. The rest is history and the wet shuttle clutch works very, very well. This is true unless I'm in reverse still rolling backward down hill and engage to forward, then there is some rough jerking, same with our NH 2120 shuttle. I also have a International with a manual but with a 3 puck ceramic clutch and while it is not a shuttle, does have just about the easiest F/R shifting I have seen on a manual. I have a soft spot for it, it's a massive chunk of iron and gobs of power in a 179 cu inch 3 cylinder diesel. Rat...

Libertine · Jan 10, 2004

_RaT_:

That viscous coupling is precisely one of the reasons why the HST does what it does so very well. I look at parking a tractor on a hill with the engine off a job well done by the parking brake. 

Like most things in life, there are pros and cons. If you're dragging something heavy up a hill and the engine quits on you, you could be in deep doo doo. In fact one guy posting on this site had that happen to him - almost got wiped out. The reason I posted what I did was not to suggest that HST's were "no good." It was in response to Tractors4u's comment about the fact many of the pro-HST guys seem to take an almost religious fanaticism about them. If someone said something like "I realize there are aome safety issues with HSTs, they are power robbers and cost more fuel to operate, but, their benefits "for me", such as infinitely variable speeds, etc. etc., are worth the costs" I would have no objection to that. Its the lack of balance, especially those who tout the HST to new tractor people as the end-all be-all WITHOUT offering an explanation of the risks/costs etc.

That's all. I've used HST stuff and for some types of things I would buy one. But, FOR ME (not for everyone) they arn't worth the money/safety risks/ etc. But that's just me.

We're not supposed to talk politics, but do you like your new governor??????

JEH