HST Transmission

[cowboydoc]

I can pretty much guarantee you that if you run that hydro for 24 hours pulling a ripper and run the 7820 pulling the ripper you are going to see a significant temperature difference. If you have some guys running them with only 80-100 cows then they aren't going to be out farming thousands of acres. If you just use one to putt around the farm moving haybale and doing some occasional fieldwork for a few hours here and there it probably would hold up. But I guarantee you put that hydro out on a big ripper or planter and it will not last very long. And I would never own one of them for the safety issues alone. Also are you sure the 1066 was a true hydro? I didn't think they put a true hydro in the 1066. I thought that was the 1026. I also find it pretty hard to believe that unless there were some modifications done that the 115 hp pto would run 170 pto hp. The only way that is going to happen is with some serious modification because it sure didn't run from the factory that way.

 

[art]

Okay so it takes someone with some knowledge a little mechanical skill a screwdriver 7/16 socket and 5 minutes, they go to 225hp and then the pump runs out. So what's your point. The 1026-1026 area the same hydro's. On a planter no problem,probably less broken pieces! The ripper nobody ever said it was meant to do that. The heat on a hydro is the same off the 7800 transmission! They all are pushing the temperature to 200 plus degree's today. The hydro was not intended to do tillage. The straight gear drive is the most efficient there is to do that job.

 

[cowboydoc]

"Cowboydoc, youare wrong on the reliability of the hydro's on the farm. We have farms that are still using them and have used them for tillage work and they are frustrated as they can't purchase new ones"

"The hydro was not intended to do tillage. The straight gear drive is the most efficient there is to do that job."

Well which is it art? The above are your own words. You tell me I'm full of it because I say the hydro can't hold up to tillage. Then you argue with me and say the hydro wasn't meant to do tillage which is what I said in the first place. And if it isn't meant to do tillage what in the world do you need a 170 hp tractor for to haul around haybales? I can do that with my 4600. And yes they both may have the same operating temperature, which I doubt because the 7820 has a complete separate cooling system for the transmission and the 1066 doesnt, but the hydro will overheat where that 7820 will run as many days as you want her to without ever overheating. For that matter so will a 1066 gear tractor. The gear 1066 is a great old tractor. But that hydro is junk for doing serious farming. It won't hold up and you'll be lucky to get a half a days work before it's overheated.
And if you agree that it won't even pull a ripper then why in the heck would you want one if you're talking about a real farmer?

 

[slowrev]

Art,
A 1066 with that kind of HP and wont pull a ripper ???

 

[art]

I didn't say it wouldn't. I wouldn't rate a 1066 hydro in tillage any higher then a 966 gear drive when stock. They used to rate tractors by drawbar horsepower and if you pull up the specs are about the same. The hydro took the tractors to 4000 hours plus on the original rubber even on our hills. A gear drive would get 2000 hours and we all know about the clutches and brake wear. But to hook two identical choppers behind a gear drive and a hydro that the hydro ran the normal ten horse power less and the gear wasn't even a match for the hydro's performance. Watched that in Tifton Georgia the first time. Seen it done several times since.

 

[art]

Cowboydoc, my neighbor is the one with the hydro 1066. For the sake of it I made a call to him this evening on the way home. I did make a mistake as his tractor has over 9300 hours on it now. There aren't to many farmers in our area that can pull deep tills as most of it is on potential quarry ground but he does do about forty acres a year with a 9 shank chisel plow. He pulls 5-18' bottoms with it and still prefers it over his 1586 knowing that the 1586 is a better puller for tillage and doesn't burn as much fuel. The 1066 is on there 1275 gehl chopper all summer a minimum of six hours a day and he will tell you that the 1066 seems to have quite an edge over the 1586 on the chopper for speed. The 1586 also runs at 175 horse on the dyno. His son as well as the dad would like another one as they would like one for the mower too. The hydro has it's place as well as the gear. The part you are blowing out of purportion that I do have offence to is the constant power loss thing you keep bringing up and the heat. If you would like I can warm his tractor up as he uses it for plowing snow tomorrow as well as the used JD7800 if it will start and take temp readings, will you be ready for the results? As I said before there is little or no difference in the temp on these trannys when used proper. There is no perfect piece for every job! Period.

 

[snowbound]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Same reason you see hst in the backhoes and big loaders for construction equipment. They don't have a constant big load on the transmission like you would farming.)</font>

There's no reason I know of you can't design an HST for a constant load requiring torque. They're making a lot of log skidders with HST now and dragging logs around is not exactly light work.

 

[Old_Hickory]

Amen to the dragging logs,I have been doing some heavy timbering with my JD 4400 hydro and I am pulling logs 20' in length and 24" to 28" in diameter up hills etc for as far as 1 1/2 miles and my hydro has not over heated.I have been working on this project since July 2003,I am having to use the steering brakes to scratch and claw my way of the hills at 20% to 25 % grade. There are places I have had the tractor in mud that actually had the front axle covered and I am sitting there spinning and trying to work my way through the mess. No over heating problems.

 

[cowboydoc]

Hickory,

How would you even know if your hydro overheated? You don't even have a temp. gauge on it. And you just made my point as well. Yes you may use the tractor with a load for 30 minutes, an hour maybe with a CONSTANT load. Then you are stopped trying to claw up the hill. Then you get to the top and you spend time unhooking and driving around unloaded. This allows the hydro time to cool off. I think if you put a temp. gauge on your transmission you would see the spikes in temp. when you're under a constant heavy load. And also what gear are you in? But the point is you are working the tractor, then not working it, working it again, etc. This gives the hydro time to cool off. You are not hooking that tractor to it's maximum towing weight and driving with that constant load at a constant speed for with smoke coming out the stacks for 16 hours straight.

Art,

If you want to use one example of a guy plowing 40 acres that probably took 2-4 hours to do then my point is already made. If all you did was hook a chopper to it and plowed 40 acres once a year and used it for chores the rest of the time it might last. But that is the whole problem with these conversations in relation to hydro, the cheaper tractors, etc. I have yet to meet one guy on here that REALLY farms. You hook my 20' disc ripper on that 1066 and let's see how long it lasts. My 4430 pulls it all day and night long and never even raises the transmission temp. I can guarantee you that will not happen on that 1066 hydro. Take the gear 1066 and you bet it could probably do about as good if it was turned up. You though talk about all this stuff from the standpoint of gentleman farmers, guys that only use their tractor maybe 300-500 hours a year at the very most, only have from 1-200 acres. Everything talked about probably will work for that. Heck when I started out I had 25 acres and used a 40 year old Massey Ferguson Super 90. It did the job and I could go on about it being the same thing you're claiming with the 1066. But the truth is that tractor wouldn't have held up for a week doing the kind of farming I do now. And that's not even addressing the safety issues of those older tractors, especially the hydros.

As far as designing a hydro that will work. I'm sure they could but are guys going to pay for it. The IVT option on the JD's is $14,000. And most farmers remember the International hydro mess. No matter what Art says it was a failure. To say it flopped and left a bad taste in farmers mouths to ever try a hydro again is an understatement. If the IVT and some of these other pseudo hydro's go over well then you probably will see a return of hydros to the higher hp tractors.

 

[BillyP]

Well Doc, I'll give you an example of an HST at work.

I've tilled 6 to 8 hours straight, in 90 to 100+ degree weather. Done this numerous times. I'll admit, I don't have a clue to what temp the HST reaches but my feet sit right above it.

This is on a JD 4610 eHydro, pulling a Preifert Offset Litter Saver with the tailgate open about 4". The depth of the litter runs around 6" +/-. Engine RPMs set at 21 to 2,200, toggle between medium and low range.

By the way, this is in reference to your reply to Old Hickory's post.

 

[art]

Cowboydoc, I haven't found to many of your super farmers on Tractorbynet! So when in Rome let's talk Rome! I'm unaware of your runaway problem you talk about obviously your local dealer must have had some issues in his shop that should have been delt with. The main reason many of the Part time farmers in this area as you refer to them perfer the hydro transmissions for the safety of not having to change a gear or range to do a job on a side hill. There is no free wheel mode on a hydro. By the way I'd hope none of these dairy farmers working 100 plus hours a week all year long for the money they get paid here you say that as you'd have a contract out on you! The flexibility of the variable speed transmission types and the need for them was brought to the farming industry by Ford and the Select-o-speed and with IH and the hydro. The need in larger tractors used by farmers (your super farmers too) has been demonstrated and the manufacturers are responding with the variable speed transmissions we see coming out now. Yes, even the manufacturers are telling you that is the wave of the future for productivity. Did you have the big up-date to the 40 series rear done on your 4430 or didn't you buy it new?

 

[cowboydoc]

I'm quite sure if any of the dairy farmers were on here then they would know all about the failure of the International hydro. And the safety issue is also a well known fact. No way you can trust that hydro on a sidehill. It is not near what the hydros of today are. And just for the record I'm not talking about super farmers. I'm talking about guys that make a living farming. Yes this can be done if you're a small dairy operation on a couple hundred acres. Most farmers that make a living need a minimum of 2000 acres to make it. Those aren't my figures those are the figures of the US Ag. Dept. and Farm Bureau. The hydro your friend has may work jsut fine for him. I do know for a fact that you won't find 1% of real farmers that would take buy one even for little of no money. Heck just look at the resale value. A gear 1066 will bring 25-50% more than a hydro. And those are not my #'s. How do you explain that if they are so good like you say?

And Billy I should hope that your 4610 would pull that tiller without overheating. It only needs 30 hp to pull and you're over 10 hp what it was designed to be pulled with. I'm not saying that the hydro on these little tractors is bad. And some of the IVT's they're coming out with are pretty nice as well. BUT the IVT is not a hydro transmission either. I don't know of anyone that has a true hydro in anything but a compact tractor. How well they are going to hold up is another story. Let me know how yours is doing at 3000 hours. Hopefully it will be pretty good. I would be all for a hydro that held up to all the jobs we use tractors for. Right now though there isn't one that will do that and the ones that were made in the past failed miserably.

 

[Old_Hickory]

My hydro was hot one time and it was because the lever that operates the 4 in 1 loader was stuck and it was constantly trying to shut the bucket after it was already shut(overworking the hydraulics),and it was so hot that you could feel the heat on your legs and you could not hold your hand on the housing,it took me a little while to figure out it was stuck,that was hot and it has never been that hot before or since. Any other time it has never been that hot before,no matter what I was doing with the tractor.So I think I have been around the tractor long enough I could feel it/tell if it was hot as hot as your making it sound that one would get.
How are stopped when you are clawing?I was using the steering brakes to keep it going thus locking one wheel so the other one would bite in and keep going.

 

[Old_Hickory]

HST reaches but my feet sit right above it.

Billy you are right,if the hydro was very hot you would feel it under your feet and on your legs on the compacts.

 

[cowboydoc]

So now you're telling me that you know how hot your transmission temp. is just because of how hot the casing is? Well if you're hot enough to feel it through the casing you've already boiled your fluid and you better stop and have it changed. Once it's overheated the oil is junk. Anytime you get over 220 degrees it should be changed. And if you got that hot through the casing you were probably up around 300 degrees. I really don't think you're going to be able to tell 200 from 220 degrees. 200 is at the upper limit of safe at least in the bigger tractors. I would assume it's the same on the smaller tractors but not sure there. You get into 220 and you're in trouble. At 220 you aren't going to feel the casing getting hot. Many techs will recommend if you get even up to 220 you should change the oil.

 

[popabear]

Cowboydoc, if you look to the Cat. Case and John Deere sites I think you will see that all offer dozers with Hydrostatic Transmissions. These machines are made to work all day and work hard. I don't think you will see to many Dozers or for that matter much heavy construction equipment without a Hydro trans. I don't see what you feel is the problem with having a hydro in a CUT?

 

[Old_Hickory]

Now just HOW do you know the oil was not changed ???
Did I quote a specific temperature ? Did I say it was 220 or 300? I can feel something and tell if it was hot and not have to know the exact temperature to say it was hot or too hot.

 

[Old_Hickory]

The majority of dozers made sold today have hydro's in them and thats a fact.
Regardless of what anyone thinks hydro's are becoming more and more common (regardless of what some people think or want you to think). As time goes on the hydro's will be more common on larger tractors,technology and reliability will improve.

 

[cowboydoc]

If you read my post above popabear you will see that I addressed CAT's. The load for a CAT is usually not constant it is full load and then no load. That no load time lets the transmission cool. Also if you read all the posts I don't think a hydro in a CUT is a bad idea. For 90% of the people that buy one it will last a lifetime. The talk usually is that a hydro is better than a gear tractor. But I don't think a hydro in a cut is a bad idea by any means. If you are going to do any serious tillage work I sure wouldn't buy one. But that's my opinion on the CUT's. With regard to the hydro on the internationals that isn't my opinion that there is fact. And with regard to hydros that have been produced in the past they are not a viable alternative for field work. If you are using one to haul manure, move bales, general chore and loader work and even use on a chopper which goes extremely slow they will be fine until you get the bill to repair one. Bigger tractors are testing them right now. But the main problem is the heat factor and the amount of hp that it takes to run it. That's why you see the powershifts and the new IVT from John Deere. They are not a true hydro but they are close to it. And the cost as well. That hydro in the CAT's and such are pretty bulletproof. But they also are only for slow slow speeds and they cost as much as alot of new tractors just for the transmission. If you farmed would you spend an extra $30k just for a hydro transmission on a $50 or 60k tractor? And then to repair one is just ridiculous. On those 1066's Art is talking about very rarely does one get repaired. It is usually 2 to 3 times what the tractor is worth to repair one. And running it will rob about 30% of your hp. And those aren't my #'s those are the techs #'s.

 

[5030]

Richard:

I have read this WHOLE thread and I have to butt in here, so to speak, and get my 2 cents in.

I am not going to take sides, or point fingers other to say that our tillage tractors are all gear drive.

Everyone here knows what I do with my 5030HSTC. Saying that, I use the tractor when the ambient temperature is high and the implements I pull are pretty power intensive as well as heavy.

I had a temperature issue with Kubota last year on the HST unit in the 5030, so I bought a Raytek infrared thermometer to "shoot" the transmission housing. I don't think that a "hand on the case" is a good indicator of transmission temperature.

The 5030 has the same size HST oil cooler as it's lesser powered siblings. I have always felt that tillage should be with a gear drive unit, with the hydro being a crossover between loader work and field work where you need to constantly change ground speed to control the task your doing more efficiently. I wold never consider moldboard plowing with the 5030.

Anyway, I felt that the 5030's transmission was running too hot when running the MoCo, especially on the hilly terrain that one of our fields has. Occasionally, I could actually get a whiff of hot oil, and I don't like that. I know what the result is from overheated transmission oil in a car transmission. It's not pretty. Besides, seal failure gets pretty high in temperatures over 250 degrees. I worked the tractor with the mower pretty hard and shot the casing at various times during the course of the day. My highest actual temperature was 222 degrees. I relayed this information to my dealer, and he told me that with Kubota UDT, the fluid didn't begin to oxidize and breakdown until the actual fluid temperature reached and sustained an ambient temperature of 230 degrees. As far as they (dealer) is concerned, the oil cooler is adequate for the unit, and I haven't caused any breakdown in the fluid. Only time will tell.