HST help

[s219]

It's not accurate to say that HST is superior to Gear. It all depends on the application, the tasks you need to perform. There are times where Gear outshines HST. Having owned both, and even though I prefer HST for myself (because I mostly do commercial landscaping and lots of loader work)... I will say that, without a doubt, a Gear will put the HP to the ground much more efficiently, with more raw power. So, in ground engagement applications, plowing, discing, cultivating, etc...the Gear is actually better.

I agree 100%, and that's what I was trying to get at in my reply up above. When I bought a tractor for mowing years ago, I opted for gear because HST was unnecessary and I could really tell that the HST sapped a bit of power. The gear was more responsive and clearly put more power to the ground. I still have that Deere for mowing, and still am happy with the transmission choice. Newere Deeres in that size come HST-only.

When it came time for a general purpose tractor that would have most use for loader work and grading/landscaping, there was no question in my mind HST was better. Didn't even consider gear tractors then.

So to me, the OP needs to consider his usage and make the right choice. HST doesn't really have the downsides he was concerned about at the start of the thread. However, that doesn't mean it's the best option either.

 

[s219]

so when comparing a 45hp HST to a 45hp gear on a dyno at the rear wheel as an example, the gear would have more hp at the rear wheel... is this accurate based on what I have read?
the gear has somewhat of a mechanical advantage over the HST..?

The issue is that the HST converts mechanical energy to fluid dynamic energy, and then back to mechanical energy. There are losses in that process, and it's also subject to the limitations of fluids that can shear and slip (which creates heat). The end result is a loss of some of the input power. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd guess it's in the 10-15% range. HST tractors tend to have 5-10% less HP at the PTO, but I think that's a side effect of the HST using up some power that would otherwise go to the PTO. When the same power is channeled through the HST, there are additional losses as it goes to the wheels.

 

[Kodiak45]

I'm trying to get a feel for capability of a newer HST tractor with loader to my current 45hp Long 2460 as I definitely do not want to downsize in pulling power. The 2460 pulls a 2 bottom plow without straining and will pull my JD 5ft tandem offset disc also, so I definitely want to be able to use my current implements with my proposed tractor. In the next year or two, I'd like to get an older 100 hp to strictly use for plowing, but my utility tractor with loader comes first. I know 4x4 will add some capability, but I don't know if that should be a factor in what can be pulled as something is telling me that if I have to use 4x4 in order to pull an implement on dry ground, then perhaps I should just be using a larger tractor... maybe that thought is way off, I just don't want to strain or put anything under stress that would cause unnecessary wear and tear.
So with all that, it seems that I should be looking at 50hp and up for HST if I want similar capabilities with my Long 2460...?

 

[TSO]

I'm trying to get a feel for capability of a newer HST tractor with loader to my current 45hp Long 2460 as I definitely do not want to downsize in pulling power. The 2460 pulls a 2 bottom plow without straining and will pull my JD 5ft tandem offset disc also, so I definitely want to be able to use my current implements with my proposed tractor. In the next year or two, I'd like to get an older 100 hp to strictly use for plowing, but my utility tractor with loader comes first. I know 4x4 will add some capability, but I don't know if that should be a factor in what can be pulled as something is telling me that if I have to use 4x4 in order to pull an implement on dry ground, then perhaps I should just be using a larger tractor... maybe that thought is way off, I just don't want to strain or put anything under stress that would cause unnecessary wear and tear.
So with all that, it seems that I should be looking at 50hp and up for HST if I want similar capabilities with my Long 2460...?

I disc with a 3pt 6.5' tandem disc. It's a full box frame, probably weighs around 1000 lbs I'm guessing.

My 48 HP HST tractor handles it in medium range. But, I wouldn't want to go any lower in HP for that disc.

 

[Grandad4]

Msg deleted ... duplicate.

 

[Sysop]

What you lose in horsepower, you make up for in torque from the lower "ratios" available in an HST. As I'd stated before, if geared tractors were geared as low as the ratios able to be produced by an HST, they would make more torque for pulling. They're not geared as low as what an HST can do, and therefore don't produce as much torque. Yes, raw power is lost in HST, but it is "geared" much lower and in the end has more "grunt"... There are many reasons most of the heavy ground engaging construction equipment has gone to HST.

 

[Grandad4]

I'm trying to get a feel for capability of a newer HST tractor with loader to my current 45hp Long 2460 as I definitely do not want to downsize in pulling power. The 2460 pulls a 2 bottom plow without straining and will pull my JD 5ft tandem offset disc also, so I definitely want to be able to use my current implements with my proposed tractor. In the next year or two, I'd like to get an older 100 hp to strictly use for plowing, but my utility tractor with loader comes first. I know 4x4 will add some capability, but I don't know if that should be a factor in what can be pulled as something is telling me that if I have to use 4x4 in order to pull an implement on dry ground, then perhaps I should just be using a larger tractor... maybe that thought is way off, I just don't want to strain or put anything under stress that would cause unnecessary wear and tear.
So with all that, it seems that I should be looking at 50hp and up for HST if I want similar capabilities with my Long 2460...?

Couple of points to add... maybe adds a bit to what others have said. First, if you're going from a tradtional 2wd farm utility to a 4x4 CUT style tractor, there's a big difference in weight distribution. The 4x4 has way more weight at the front end, so in 2wd it has less pulling power than a 2wd farm tractor of the same weight and horsepower. Don't consider using the 4wd a big deal because these newer tractors are designed to work that way.
Next, if your plan is to change to an HST loader tractor and use it for your field work for a couple of years until you can get that 100 hp rig, just my opinion but you should be OK as long as you're not working many, many acres with it. There are TBN members doing a goodly amount of that work with their HST tractors with no trouble.
Also, a 45+ horsepower HST should handle your tillage work without straining. I think you'd find a 4x4 would pull more than a 2wd of the same power and weight in either dry or wet condtions, probably more than offsetting the HST power losses. 50 hp would put you ahead some from your current setup.
It would help you get a better sense of things if there is a dealer near you who would let you demo a tractor at your place for a day. Guess that's becoming a rarity but maybe if you don't look like a shifty character someone local might work with you. Best of luck in your plans and shopping.

 

[GManBart]

so when comparing a 45hp HST to a 45hp gear on a dyno at the rear wheel as an example, the gear would have more hp at the rear wheel... is this accurate based on what I have read?
the gear has somewhat of a mechanical advantage over the HST..?

Correct. The other thing you'd see is that the PTO horsepower would be a bit lower for the HST machine as well. It's normally along the lines of a couple of horsepower difference for something like a 40hp tractor.

 

[texasjohn]

It's easy to over analyze this topic.
All transmissions eat power between the engine and wheels. HST technically eats more than a gear tractor, but it's not but a few hp.
Most people will not be able to find the difference since it is seen only at full RPM's and with max hp required by attached equipment.
Can you actually find the difference in operation between say 50 hp and maybe 46 hp...I can't.
And, as commented, HST puts all its RPM torque to the wheels, at ALL speeds...and it's an infinitely variable transmission.
Many, myself included, have testified that they successfully use HST for many acres of ground engagement, when needed.
HST has many features, discussed elsewhere in this thread, which make it unique among transmissions.

In my opinion, if one is actually full time farming over 200 acres, then likely you need more than 60ish hp, which puts you out of the HST category. Below that, be aware of all the pros and cons for each transmission type, understand your budget, needs, value you place on ability to move slow at high power, safety, and make your decision.

My decision and that of many others who have previously posted is that HST is well worth a few extra dollars because of the features we have learned to greatly appreciate. That said, other transmissions can be made to work with varying degrees of flexibility, efficiency, safety and operator fatigue.

 

[TSO]

It's easy to over analyze this topic.
All transmissions eat power between the engine and wheels. HST technically eats more than a gear tractor, but it's not but a few hp.
Most people will not be able to find the difference since it is seen only at full RPM's and with max hp required by attached equipment.
Can you actually find the difference in operation between say 50 hp and maybe 46 hp...I can't.
And, as commented, HST puts all its RPM torque to the wheels, at ALL speeds...and it's an infinitely variable transmission.
Many, myself included, have testified that they successfully use HST for many acres of ground engagement, when needed.
HST has many features, discussed elsewhere in this thread, which make it unique among transmissions.

In my opinion, if one is actually full time farming over 200 acres, then likely you need more than 60ish hp, which puts you out of the HST category. Below that, be aware of all the pros and cons for each transmission type, understand your budget, needs, value you place on ability to move slow at high power, safety, and make your decision.

My decision and that of many others who have previously posted is that HST is well worth a few extra dollars because of the features we have learned to greatly appreciate. That said, other transmissions can be made to work with varying degrees of flexibility, efficiency, safety and operator fatigue.

My 41 HP LS shuttle shift could easily out push and out pull my 47 HP LS HST tractor. same exact tractor, same exact engine just tuned up a bit for more power in the hydro.

It was easily noticeable. Power to the ground.

Now, PTO HP is a different story. You probably won't notice a few extra or less HP at the PTO.

Again, I prefer HST ... For the majority of my tractor use. But when I was out discing my field the other day, I would have preferred a Gear-shuttle.

 

[texasjohn]

Good to know...you have two tractors nearly identical, thus can compare the difference, and can compare.

The tractor you were driving the other day was HST, and you prefer it generally.

I'd guess that if you could own only one tractor, it would be HST and you would get the job done with it on your 15 or so acres.

 

[TSO]

Good to know...you have two tractors nearly identical, thus can compare the difference, and can compare.

The tractor you were driving the other day was HST, and you prefer it generally.

I'd guess that if you could own only one tractor, it would be HST and you would get the job done with it on your 15 or so acres.

Yes exactly ... For my uses, only one tractor, HST all day. But if the vast majority of my uses were field and "farm" work, then shuttle would be my choice.

 

[GManBart]

My 41 HP LS shuttle shift could easily out push and out pull my 47 HP LS HST tractor. same exact tractor, same exact engine just tuned up a bit for more power in the hydro.

It was easily noticeable. Power to the ground.

It's possible that some of what you saw was due to differences in gearing as well as HST losses. The problem is there's no real way to know without some technical data that probably isn't available.

There is also the possibility that the 41hp version was turned up on the high end, and the 47hp version was on the low end. After seeing the EA video with the PTO dyno, I'm not sure I'll ever believe a tractor makes it's rated power without proof. I can't recall exactly how much, but the tractor in the video was well below its rated power in factory spec condition...I think we might find tractors varying wildly in both directions from what they should be.

 

[TSO]

It's possible that some of what you saw was due to differences in gearing as well as HST losses. The problem is there's no real way to know without some technical data that probably isn't available.

There is also the possibility that the 41hp version was turned up on the high end, and the 47hp version was on the low end. After seeing the EA video with the PTO dyno, I'm not sure I'll ever believe a tractor makes it's rated power without proof. I can't recall exactly how much, but the tractor in the video was well below its rated power in factory spec condition...I think we might find tractors varying wildly in both directions from what they should be.

valid point. It's very possible. And I also wish I had access to a PTO dyno. I would love to see what my tractor actually puts out. Regarding the EA video, I believe the tractor was listed as putting out around 70 PTO HP, but in their first run I want to say it was in the 60's.

 

[oldpilgrim]

I don't believe you could tell much of a difference in a geared vs hst machine with the same engines in terms of pulling. Some maybe, but not enough to sway a decision one way or the other. Both will spin the tires under enough load.

Where the hst shines is your ability to make the tractor move over the ground at virtually any speed you want without ever shifting or varying the engine speed.

If you are doing field work, keep in mind that you can adjust engine speed to get the proper pto speed and still go however fast or slow as you need. Engine speed remains constant, pto speed is constant and proper and the tractor travels at whatever speed you desire.

Think about using a bush hog or tiller and inching it right up to a tree or a fence or whatever. Or backing your plow right up to a fence to start your next row. Going to scrape up manure? Push it right up against the wall of the manure bin. Going to load a truck? Drive the tractor right up to the side of the truck and not worry about hitting the truck.

Someone mentioned the use of an hst in more and more ground engaging equipment. Big dozers use them. Very big excavators use them..and they've got Power with a capital P. Virtually all skid steers use them. More and more lawn tractors use them.

I see no downside to an hst, and I drove a gear for 20+ years.

With all due respect, don't over think this. In the tractor size you're considering, it's very unlikely that you'll do anything to make you wish you had a geared model.

 

[GManBart]

valid point. It's very possible. And I also wish I had access to a PTO dyno. I would love to see what my tractor actually puts out. Regarding the EA video, I believe the tractor was listed as putting out around 70 PTO HP, but in their first run I want to say it was in the 60's.

10hp low sounds about right to me. The thing that gets me is that's almost 15% low. Imagine if you bought a new car/truck that was supposed to put out 250hp to the rear wheels, and it only put out 212hp....people wouldn't accept that.

This is all part of my plan to subtly influence you into finding a PTO dyno

 

[TSO]

10hp low sounds about right to me. The thing that gets me is that's almost 15% low. Imagine if you bought a new car/truck that was supposed to put out 250hp to the rear wheels, and it only put out 212hp....people wouldn't accept that.

This is all part of my plan to subtly influence you into finding a PTO dyno

Lol... maybe if I had YOUR money

 

[jenkinsph]

I don't believe you could tell much of a difference in a geared vs hst machine with the same engines in terms of pulling. Some maybe, but not enough to sway a decision one way or the other. Both will spin the tires under enough load.

Where the hst shines is your ability to make the tractor move over the ground at virtually any speed you want without ever shifting or varying the engine speed.

If you are doing field work, keep in mind that you can adjust engine speed to get the proper pto speed and still go however fast or slow as you need. Engine speed remains constant, pto speed is constant and proper and the tractor travels at whatever speed you desire.

Think about using a bush hog or tiller and inching it right up to a tree or a fence or whatever. Or backing your plow right up to a fence to start your next row. Going to scrape up manure? Push it right up against the wall of the manure bin. Going to load a truck? Drive the tractor right up to the side of the truck and not worry about hitting the truck.

Someone mentioned the use of an hst in more and more ground engaging equipment. Big dozers use them. Very big excavators use them..and they've got Power with a capital P. Virtually all skid steers use them. More and more lawn tractors use them.

I see no downside to an hst, and I drove a gear for 20+ years.

With all due respect, don't over think this. In the tractor size you're considering, it's very unlikely that you'll do anything to make you wish you had a geared model.

That pretty much sums it up for me too.^^^
When buying my second new tractor I knew I wanted another hst. At the time my gear tractor just was not getting used much because it wasn't as convenient to operate.

Fuel use, I am sure the hst uses more but not enough to bother me. Most of these small tractors seem to use so little fuel that it isn't a concern. Rarely have I ever needed more than a tank of fuel to work my tractors all day. In a 60hp tractor with hst I may use an extra gallon or two of fuel compared to a gear tractor in a days work but the convenience is well worth the difference to me.

If the OP plans to buy a 100+hp older tractor for the larger field work in the near future I would not hesitate to recommend an hst for the smaller utility tractor. That would have all bases covered imo.