How best to adapt skid steer grapple to KL120?

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

I have just purchased (but not yet taken delivery of) a Millonzi 48” light duty root grapple with a standard skid steer mounting. The manufacturer has given me the choice of either having a Kioti mount attached to the grapple in place of the quick attach or to fabricate a quick attach adapter for my KL120. I’m trying to decide which would be the best way to go.

It would be a little over a hundred bucks extra to get the adapter over just modifying the grapple to fit the Kioti mount. However, the adapter would allow me to use other light skid steer attachments and the unmodified grapple would seem to me to be easier to resell in the future if I find I no longer have need for a dedicated grapple.

The weight of the grapple is 285lbs and they think an adapter would add another 80lbs or so. As the KL120 has lifting capacity of 1070lbs at the pivot pins the grapple weight doesn’t seem like it will cut into capacity too much. I figure the original bucket weighs 200lbs so the grapple set up even with an adapter plate would not weigh much more than the original bucket plus an add on Thumb type grapple or an Add A Grapple attachment. I am planning to use it to lift and move lots of brush and small trees so I kinda doubt I could grapple a big enough load to come anywhere near the lift capacity anyways.

As you can see I am leaning towards the quick attach adapter rather than having the grapple mount itself modified. Any opinions?

Highbeam · Mar 11, 2006

I would leave the grapple with QA and get an adapter to pin onto the loader to that you could use other QA implements like forks or something else from a rental yard. You could still switch to the Kioti pin on bucket, you would just leave the QA adapter mounted to the grapple. You'll have hydraulics out front for the grapple so snow implements, post hole diggers, brooms, tree sheers, whatever other crazy skid steer attachments they make you could use.

How much does something like that run you?

MotorSeven · Mar 11, 2006

IT,

I'd have to go the adapter route......then the possibilities are endle.......uhoh...this may cost you a fortune in the long run:
QA pallet forks
QA large capacity bucket
QA man lift
QAQAQA......etc..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

RD

sodamo · Mar 11, 2006

I'd vote for the QA mod to your FEL. I have it and love it, so easy to change over to pallet forks and I even made a QA hitch to mount boom pole on FEL - really useful.

David

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

Sounds like you guys are agreeing with me that the adapter route would be best. I plan to talk to the manufacturer on Monday to confirm details.

I do like the side benefit of being able to rent rather than buy implements I don't need regularly. I honestly haven't looked into the skid steer attachment rental market but I assume it's there.

Highbeam, I don't yet know the total cost because I don't have a firm price for the adapter yet. I got the grapple on ebay for what I thought was a very good price, $575 plus $135 shipping. It was the companies first ebay auction so there were not that many bidders and I think I got lucky. (Glad I wasn't competing against hords of grapple crazed TBNers /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) The regular retail price is $695 which is still a great deal compared to other grapples on the market. I expect the adapter plate to be around $300. They would charge about half of that to just modify the bucket for the KL120 pins.

The cost is not that much more than an Add A Grapple and much less than any other full grapple or even ATI's 4688 add on. I couldn't use the less expensive front bucket lip grapple attachments because I have a chain hook welded in the middle of my bucket's top edge. The Millonzi is made in Ohio and is clearly sold as a light duty grapple which is obvious given the 285lb weight. That is all I need for collecting and moving brush piles. With a compact tractor loader, even a mighty KL120, you don't want 600lbs of grapple chewing into your lift capacity. I figure I'll be able to lift at least 600-700 pounds of brush/logs which is more than I am likely to fit into the grapple in one bite.

I have carried on some email correspondence with one of their employees. They are mostly in the skid steer market but seemed interested in exploring the compact tractor market too. They will make the adapter for the Kioti KL120/130 regardless of whether I choose to go that route so they seem serious about the CUT market. I told them to check out TBN and to consider advertizing here. PM me if you want contact info for Joe, the guy handling the ebay listings.

I still need to get a valve diverter kit (leaning strongly toward WRLong's little red button diverter kit at the moment) so it will be a few weeks or a month before I am operational. I'll post about my experience when I have moved a few of the huge piles I've accummulated over the past couple of years and attacked a few wayward blueberry bushes.

KiotiJohn · Mar 11, 2006

I agree, if you can get them to build a QA plate for the KL120, go for it. I bought clamp-on bucket forks for mine, and I would much rather have had a plate to attach better forks.
If they can build it for $300, that's a very good price. I think the available after-market QA for the KL130 is over $500.
Make sure you can know what the QA will do to your rollback angle if any. The KL120 has a good rollback on it, but the QA will change it to some degree. I'm not sure how much.
John

KiotiDave · Mar 11, 2006

(leaning strongly toward WRLong's little red button diverter kit at the moment)

Hi,

I would say if you can get a light weight adapter, that is the way to go. If you would like to save money, I noticed that you have a backhoe. If you run the hoe off a set of double acting valves, you can run the grapple off the same valve with lines long enough to reach the back of the tractor.
I have set up other equipment to run this way and it works very well for a lot less money.
Just a thought, good luck.
KiotiDave

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

If you run the hoe off a set of double acting valves, you can run the grapple off the same valve 

I run my BH off the power beyond valve. I didn't think that could be used to run a grapple. If it can I presume that means I would use the A position to open and the B position to close (or vice versa)? Is that how it would work? If that is so, it will be nice to consider initially at least as I would love to just get the thing up and running. What would happen to the grapple with the valve in the neutral position?

Having the long hydraulic lines would be a bit funky but that might be OK if it got me started earlier. I was planning on spending the next nice weekend working on the diverter valve, if I could spend it playing with the grapple instead that would be nice.

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

Make sure you can know what the QA will do to your rollback angle if any. 

I'll check. Not sure it makes that much difference with a grapple however. I'd be more concerned about my ability to put the open grapple in the "dump" position to pick things up. Not much reason to roll back the full grapple as the grapple itself will hold the load in place.

Am I misunderstanding what you meant by roll back angle?

Highbeam · Mar 11, 2006

"I couldn't use the less expensive front bucket lip grapple attachments because I have a chain hook welded in the middle of my bucket's top edge."

I read this somewhere else too. That bucket hook is a grinder and 2 minutes away from disappearing. A new one could always be mounted atop a bolted on grapple frame. I like metal working way more than wood working because nothing is permanent.

The remote valve as I understand works like a function on your loader so you A for open B for close and in the middle it holds. The hoses can be run along and under the tractor tied off to all the little brackets and such as needed. Another set of QDs by the loader QDS, and then the final QDs at the grapple on the loader. Hose is cheap but if you use a remote for the grapple function then it means you have to take your hand off the loader stick.

You say this thing is light duty but if it is made for SS loaders then I would think it is pretty stout. Those buggers run 70-100+ HP and have some serious loader ability.

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

Highbeam, you are correct about the grinder and the middle hook. It may have taken more than a couple of minutes though as I had it mounted on a supporting plate. 5 minutes minimum. But, that was just an excuse. I've always lusted after a real grapple just like CT Tree Guy has. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

You say this thing is light duty but if it is made for SS loaders then I would think it is pretty stout. 

We'll see. It was fairly advertized as a "light duty root grapple" which was pretty much exactly what I was looking for. It weighs only half of what some of the other grapples weigh so it must have less steel somewhere. I wasn't too concerned because I'm not using it to clean up after Katrina or dig rocks out of my yard or move 30 inch trees around. It will really be a brush grapple. If it seems strong enough I'll use it to bust up roots and push over small trees too but I'll be happy if it just makes the brush/toppings clean up easier.

KiotiDave · Mar 11, 2006

Hi,
As long as you have the valves with the yellow handle next to the 3 PT lift lever, you can use that valve. Basically all that valve does is turn on and off the hyd flow and change it's direction. We use them all the time for shutes on the snowblowers and angling cyl on grader blades etc.
You will have to route the hoses up the boom and down under the tractor to the back. It's a pain but it's cheap and will get you up and running. You will use A to close and B to open or vice versa as you indicated.
Horst Welding through Cummin and Bricker also make QA plate for CK series.
Good Luck
KiotiDave

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

As long as you have the valves with the yellow handle next to the 3 PT lift lever, you can use that valve. 

I'm a bit confused. I am half a world away from the tractor right now so cannot check. However, I don't recall any yellow handle on the back of my CK20. When I attach the BH I just plug in the QCs to the two rear outlets that were installed with the BH then move the power beyond lever to the A position. My BH is then active. When I disconnect, I just put the power beyond lever in neutral, let of the hydraulic pressure by moving the hoe levers a bit and then disconnect the hoses. Done. Where does the yellow handled valve come in to play? I don't believe I've ever seen it.

KiotiDave · Mar 11, 2006

Hi,
I'm Sorry, I don't mean to confuse. When you hook up you hoe and turn on the Hydraulic flow to it, do you turn a valve under the fender? or do you move a lever next to you on the right side(seated on tractor) into the "A or B" detent? If you have this lever you have double acting rear remotes, which you can use for a lot of different equipment. A straight power beyond will not allow you to change the direction of the oil flow. The double acting valve will. It is an added lever right next to the lever that lifts and lowers your 3 pt hitch arms.
I hope this helps.
KiotiDave

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

Yes, that clarifies it. I was confused by the yellow valve thing and thought you were referring to something accessed near the 3PT itself. I see now you were referring to the position control lever which controls the 3PT.

I do nothing under the fender when attaching my BH. I have to move the lever (Yellow!!) inboard of the position control lever on the right fender. It has position A forward, off in the middle and position B rearward. I've only used the A and off positions but my dealer informed me that if I accidently put it in the B position that the BH controls would work but be reversed. That sounds to me like the double acting valve. I've always referred to it as the power beyond valve but I guess that is not technically correct. Thanks for the info.

KiotiDave · Mar 11, 2006

Yup,
That's the one. You can run the grapple with that valve as well as a lot of other tools.
KiotiDave

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

I'm going to give it a try. Looking at the valve and FEL control arrangement, I might be able to operate the FEL with my left hand (coming across my body) while controling the grapple with my right hand on the "yellow whatever it's called valve". If I can get reasonably good at it I'll save a day's work and the $500 for the diverter. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

IslandTractor · Mar 11, 2006

One more question guys: if I add say 12 feet of hydraulic lines and a new grapple hydraulic ram, do I need to do anything with hydraulic fluid before attaching to the tractor the first time? I was assuming, but wanted to double check, that I could just hook the lines up and that the first time I opened the valve fluid would fill the new system. I would then check the hydraulic fluid level in the tractor and top off if necessary. I am I correct?

KiotiDave · Mar 11, 2006

Hi,
Yes, once you hook things up you want to run everything(up, down in and out) through their full cycles several times. Let the machine set for a minute or two and check you transmission dipstick and fill if needed. You should not have to do it every time, just the first time you hook it up. I'm sure you will get the hang of using that valve for the money it will save. Keep practicing.
KiotiDave