Hooking a hyd. winch to a log splitter

[Labrador Coaster]

Hello Gentlemen,

I was looking for info last week and came across your wonderful forum, I have been enjoying all the varied topics every since.

I have a commercially built hydraulic winch that I use to haul ashore my boat every fall - (18hp. twin B&S with Linde motor, Pullmaster drum winch), works great.

My plan was to install my freshly built log splitter onto the winch ( Use the motor and pump).

I tow my firewood logs home by boat ( no roads...), haul it ashore with the winch, then saw/split it up. We cut in the winter using snowmobiles.

Yesterday I made the connections, and it worked, but there are issues...

- The oil turned white -water?? ( you can see a small jar with some oil in one of the pics)

- The recycled cylinder (36'' stroke - 2''shaft, 4'' dia.) makes noise in both directions.

- I have to have the selector valve engaged on the winch in order for the splitter to work.

BTW, I have since moved the hose going to the splitter from where it is in the pic to directly off the pump - using a T. the return is plumbed into the top of the reservoir. ( it didn't make a difference regarding the selector)

Any advice or comments would be appreciated.

thanks,

Wilson

 

[J_J]

Yes, definitively looks like water. I would drain and refill and change the filter.

You don't normally tee off a pump unless you have some shut off valve somewhere. The components in an open center system should all be in series.

The noise you hear is probably the relief going off.

Your valves should have PB to function and be safe.

 

[leonz]

AY CARAMABA LUCY!!!!!!!!


You need an open center gear type flow divider to feed
oil to the log splitter and other functions/winch to avoid the
rats nest you have there and the issue with strapping the
valve open which is a big N0, NO!


You never, never, never T a pump unless it goes directly to a relief
valve to tank.

 

[J_J]

You need to go through the routing of the hyd fluid from the pump through both valves and correct some things.

Why not just install a selector valve and choose which unit to operate, or get the correct valves and put the circuit in series.

Prince makes a log splitter valve with log lift which would be ideal. Same valve will do log splitter and winch.

Is that a galvanized fitting on the top of the log splitter valve? If it is the return line going to the tank you might get away with it, but if it is in the high pressure circuit, you might have some trouble at any time.

 

[Labrador Coaster]

There must have been water in the old cylinder, which now has probably contaminated the entire system. I can't imagine that this is good for the hydraulic components. Best way to flush the entire system, drain the reservoir, refill, then remove returns from reservoir and pump until clear?

Sorry, my knowledge of Hydraulics is limited, you mentioned PB, does that mean I could connect other apps. to the selector valves have ''power beyond'' Both of my selector valves are single lever, the one on the winch is spring loaded, (thats why I have to have the bungee cord holding it open I realized something was wrong with the installation of the T because the winch no longer worked when the splitter was connected, but when I popped the guick connect ( which essentially blocked the flow to the splitter, the winch rotated.

The noise sounded like it was coming from where my pad was getting scraped along the I-beam, it was only when I detached the push pad and cycled the cylinder did I confirm that the sound was coming from the cylinder. Is that where the relief valve is located?

My apologies for the rather rudimentary questions

 

[leonz]

There must have been water in the old cylinder, which now has probably contaminated the entire system. I can't imagine that this is good for the hydraulic components. Best way to flush the entire system, drain the reservoir, refill, then remove returns from reservoir and pump until clear?

Sorry, my knowledge of Hydraulics is limited, you mentioned PB, does that mean I could connect other apps. to the selector valves have ''power beyond'' Both of my selector valves are single lever, the one on the winch is spring loaded, (thats why I have to have the bungee cord holding it open I realized something was wrong with the installation of the T because the winch no longer worked when the splitter was connected, but when I popped the guick connect ( which essentially blocked the flow to the splitter, the winch rotated.

The noise sounded like it was coming from where my pad was getting scraped along the I-beam, it was only when I detached the push pad and cycled the cylinder did I confirm that the sound was coming from the cylinder. Is that where the relief valve is located?

My apologies for the rather rudimentary questions

Hello Wilson,

Do not apologise for the questions at all.

The issue is the proper pumbing to avoid
getting your head blown off or being injured fatally
by an oil puncture injury.

Your winch diverter valve is dumping to tank apparently as
the winch valve is an open center valve.


Your system relief appears to be hidden by a hose in
the pictures you have so kindly provided.

About your oil; you need to drain the entire system
and physically remove the hoses one at time to drain
them and remove the cylinder to drain the oil from
the cylinder.

How close are you the North Shore and Labrador Rail Head?

 

[Labrador Coaster]

Looks like I received your last 2 responses while I was typing mine ( type too slow...).

Yes I may have to look at reconfiguring. Just to be clear, the RAts nest was not my doing, it all is part of the ''professionally built'' marine winch unit.

But I agree, I have studied it with my limited knowledge and wondered why it is so complicated.

Yup, it is galvanized piping on the bottom connection also, which is the pressurized side, I will change it.

I ran out of 90 elbows, wanted to ''Git er done'', everything has to be ordered by mail order here, takes weeks..

thanks Guys,

 

[J_J]

How many GPM's is your pump producing, and what is the pressure. Install a pressure gage and test and set the relief valves.

Your valves probably do not have PB, so it is not a good idea to put them both in series.

You could separate the two valves and use a selector valve to select which unit you want to use.

Yes, PB means power beyond, and takes the flow from the pump and passes it along to a downstream valve.

Valve with PB.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7861&catname=hydraulic

This is a selector valve.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6133&catname=hydraulic

You could get a log splitter valve with PB and install the log splitter first and then add the winch valve, as the winch valve will now go to tank.

 

[leonz]

Hello Wilson,

My apologies for the rats nest comment,
apparently they were not willing to use
gear type flow dividers to simplify things


If you could upload a few more
detailed pictures detailing the winch
and main pump that would be big help.

You would benefit with three 2-section gear
type flow dividers to contol the winch
and provide fluid power for the log splitter
and reduce the amount of plumbing you have.

 

[aczlan]

Hello Wilson,
My apologies for the rats nest comment,
apparently they were not willing to use
gear type flow dividers to simplify things

Unless he is going to use both the winch and the splitter at the same time, he will get faster cycle times from the splitter and higher speeds from the winch using power beyond valves.

Aaron Z

 

[leonz]

Unless he is going to use both the winch and the splitter at the same time, he will get faster cycle times from the splitter and higher speeds from the winch using power beyond valves.

Aaron Z

Hello Aaron,

The gear type flow divider is simpler to use and provides full flow to all functions when needed as you are still dealing with heat loss and flow through piping.

 

[aczlan]

Hello Aaron,
The gear type flow divider is simpler to use and provides full flow to all functions when needed as you are still dealing with heat loss and flow through piping.

How can that be? As I understand it, ff you have a 20/5gpm gear flow divider on a 25gpm circuit you will ALWAYS have 20GPM going one way and 5 the other.
If you are not using that 5gpm, it is essentially wasted. You can never use the full 25GPM on one side of the circuit.
That is good for a steering circuit where it always has to work, but if you will only use one side at a time, not so much.

Aaron Z

 

[leonz]

The flow and delivery is not wasted Aaron as it is always there to be used for the specific function it is routed to and that is why pumps are always rated for full system output through flow dividers to the functions like hydraulic motors or hydraulic cylinders.

Continous Miners use flow dividers for multiple functions with no issues.

His tank is large enough to use a pair of small gear type flow divider for the winch and the log splitter both.

 

[J_J]

It makes no sense to use flow dividers. If the valves are sized correctly, then two valves in series with the first valve with PB will do the job.

or

This valve here will solve his problems, and is PB capable. One lever is log splitter spool, and the other spool could be used for the winch.

Surplus Center - 2 SPOOL 25 GPM PRINCE LOG SPLITTER/LIFTER VALVE

 

[aczlan]

The flow and delivery is not wasted Aaron as it is always there to be used for the specific function it is routed to and that is why pumps are always rated for full system output through flow dividers to the functions like hydraulic motors or hydraulic cylinders.
Continous Miners use flow dividers for multiple functions with no issues.
His tank is large enough to use a pair of small gear type flow divider for the winch and the log splitter both.

Yes, as I said flow divider will guarantee that he can use both at the same time, but if he has a 25GPM pump (again pulling numbers out of the air here) and wants to use all 25GPM for one task or the other, he CANNOT do that.

Aaron Z

 

[Labrador Coaster]

Good evening,

I couldn't seem to find any markings on the pump to indicate it's size, ie;gpm.

As I mentioned, it's powered by an industrial 18hp twin cylinder motor.

I will do a better check tomorrow, and also post a couple more pics that might help. I will make an order for a pressure tester and some fittings. As you have most likely noticed the hoses are set up rather poorly on the splitter, again I used what I had available in order to get it up and running, I plan to install proper 90 degree elbows to streamline everything.

The 2 spool selector valve looks like just the ticket, getting it up here by mail might prove interesting.

I have an extra pump, and can get a new motor for a reasonable price, it might be just as well to install them and have the two systems independant of each other.

LEONZ, Yes I live along the coast of the North Shore, actually called the Lower North Shore, just across from Newfoundland. Sept-Iles is our major Industrial Town where I can get parts etc.

thanks all, talk to you tomorrow

 

[J_J]

If that is a single stage pump, the most it could pump be would be 9 GPM, at 3000 psi, or 10.5 GPM at 2500 psi.

 

[leonz]

Hello Wilson,

It appears you have a vane motor for the winch which is a very good motor type for winching and its loads.

If you can please post a picture of the main pump and plumbing when you have a bit of time. the more pictures the better to help you with this
as you want to make this a simple to take care of as possible.


The winch drive does not require a two stage pump due to the gearing and or chain drive reduction to power the winch in both directions.

Your main pump is most likely (99%) an open center gear pump so its very easy to work with.

 

[J_J]

If you were to separate the two systems, and you have another engine for a log splitter, here is some data for a single stage 3000 psi pump.

HP requirements.

4 GPM = 8 HP

6 GPM = 12 HP

8 GPM = 16 HP

10 GPM = 21 HP



Two stage pump HP requirement..

11 GPM Two stage pump.= 5 HP

13 GPM Two stage pump.= 6.5 HP

16 GPM Two stage pump.= 8 HP

22 GPM Two stage pump.= 12 HP

28 GPM Two stage pump.= 16 HP

 

[Labrador Coaster]

Evening gentlemen,

Managed to snap a few pics at lunch.

The Pump is a VICKERS, but I couldn't find any markings on it.

Something else, there is no vent in the Reservoir tank, should there be?, I tried to leave the top of the return Tee on top of the tank open, but even with a 3'' pipe extension screwed into it the oil would spill out the top.

Where should I install the pressure gauge?

I'm gonna disconnect the splitter for now, I need to flush the winch and get her back up and running, weather is gonna be getting cold, and I need to haul my boat out for the winter.

What happens if I disconnect the winch ( when my little ship is on terra firma) and connect just the splitter directly to the Vickers pump. One 1/2'' hose direct to the selector valve, and one back to the tank?