Hinomoto E324 clutch

iloveketchup · May 11, 2011

i think my clutch went bad. Was out in the woods and now it won't shift into gear. It won't grind gears, just nothing.

Does anyone have a parts list for this tractor scanned, where to get a new assembly, or where is a good place to get one rebuilt? Just looking for options. I did find parts here:

https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/Massey_Ferguson_Tractor_Parts_s/6.htm

But don't know if the E324 needs the clutch for the MF1035 or MF1040. They sound like a break point in the engine applied. i expect it is probably the MF1035 but... not sure.

I uploaded a bunch of photos that may give some info on this tractor here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/ken.mayle/HinomotoE324#

They were uploaded are extremely high resolution (google has a zoom function) and most numbers can be read off the tags. If there are questions on what a number is, let me know and I'll figure it out.

does the loader need to come off in order to do the clutch? my thoughts are yes.

Kernopelli · May 12, 2011

It appears the loader will have to come off. to replace the clutch, the tractor has to literally be split (separated) at the bell housing. Engine half pulled forward, transmission half pulled back.

Was the clutch slipping prior to this happening ( did you notice you required that you needed to use lower and lower gears for it to pull itself for instance)? Does the pedal feel normal when you push down on it? I assume the tractor is in neutral (?), can you rock the tractor back and forth a little and get it to engage a gear? Or if it's in gear rock it and get it out of gear?

Just trying to get a better idea of what was going on leading up to the problem and if it may be something else.

TractorClutchesRUs - Tractor Clutches has served me well for clutches in the past and I believe they can reline your old one if they don't carry a replacement in stock. I'm sure they can supply a pilot and throw out bearing as well ( you may have to take the old ones out and measure them first though.).

iloveketchup · May 12, 2011

Kernopelli said:
It appears the loader will have to come off. to replace the clutch, the tractor has to literally be split (separated) at the bell housing. Engine half pulled forward, transmission half pulled back.

Was the clutch slipping prior to this happening ( did you notice you required that you needed to use lower and lower gears for it to pull itself for instance)? Does the pedal feel normal when you push down on it? I assume the tractor is in neutral (?), can you rock the tractor back and forth a little and get it to engage a gear? Or if it's in gear rock it and get it out of gear?

Just trying to get a better idea of what was going on leading up to the problem and if it may be something else.

TractorClutchesRUs - Tractor Clutches has served me well for clutches in the past and I believe they can reline your old one if they don't carry a replacement in stock. I'm sure they can supply a pilot and throw out bearing as well ( you may have to take the old ones out and measure them first though.).

I spoke to my dad on the issue, he didn't mention anything about the loader but said essentially the same thing you did. He's smart about this stuff.

I thought the clutch felt good when i bought it. However, I could have been in error. the clutch engaged high on the pedal but maybe that is just something with how the pedal was adjusted.

I didn't notice needing to use lower gears. In fact, it was humming along in high and the highest gear. I'm betting this dumbass guy i told not to use it did something stupid.

I made this video a minute ago to see if you have any ideas. Essentially my dad asked if it'd creep if started without neutral safety. I'm not sure if the clutch adjustment is all the way adjusted or has some left in it. It could be damaged anyway from being left running with the clutch out though.

YouTube - Hinimoto E324 Clutch Diagnosis

Kernopelli · May 12, 2011

Wow, you certainly make it easy to get a good idea of what's going on...I like it:thumbsup:! Well, the tractor will barely pull itself under power...a sure sign of the clutch slipping. If the clutch was disengaging high in the pedal, I'm going to guess that the correct amount of free play wasn't adjusted in and could have been the cause or at least lends itself to it. Now I just got out of bed from the only sleep ( 3 hrs) I've had in the last 48hrs so I might be thinking a little backwards right now but the current adjustment is all the way in on the rod, which would explain for the immediate action in the pedal. Try letting some adjustment OUT on the rod and see if the clutch will engage. I'm thinking if the clutch pads are worn some, this will allow the plate to get closer to the flywheel.....right?:confused2: Man, this is simple, but I'm really that tired right now. Look at it and see if I'm thinking right, If I'm backwards, take the nut off the rod to give yourself a little more adjustment IN on the rod and try that.

racerboy832 · May 13, 2011

I ran into the same problem with mine. It just stopped going. It turned out to be a mouse nest that got sucked into the pressure plate so it wouldn't let it grab. Split the tractor, cleaned it all out and is like new again.

iloveketchup · May 13, 2011

racerboy832 said:
I ran into the same problem with mine. It just stopped going. It turned out to be a mouse nest that got sucked into the pressure plate so it wouldn't let it grab. Split the tractor, cleaned it all out and is like new again.

is there an inspection hatch on these? i couldn't really find anything.

for some reason i doubt it's the problem but you never know.

Any directions out there for splitting these? I've never split a tractor. I don't think it'll be too much of a problem but would like to make sure i disconnect things in the right order.

Does a clutch alignment tool help?

iloveketchup · May 13, 2011

Kernopelli said:
Wow, you certainly make it easy to get a good idea of what's going on...I like it:thumbsup:! Well, the tractor will barely pull itself under power...a sure sign of the clutch slipping. If the clutch was disengaging high in the pedal, I'm going to guess that the correct amount of free play wasn't adjusted in and could have been the cause or at least lends itself to it. Now I just got out of bed from the only sleep ( 3 hrs) I've had in the last 48hrs so I might be thinking a little backwards right now but the current adjustment is all the way in on the rod, which would explain for the immediate action in the pedal. Try letting some adjustment OUT on the rod and see if the clutch will engage. I'm thinking if the clutch pads are worn some, this will allow the plate to get closer to the flywheel.....right?:confused2: Man, this is simple, but I'm really that tired right now. Look at it and see if I'm thinking right, If I'm backwards, take the nut off the rod to give yourself a little more adjustment IN on the rod and try that.

i tried adjusting it quite a bit in and nothing. I'll probably try "all the way" to see best or worst case clearance/engagement.

Kernopelli · May 14, 2011

iloveketchup said:
is there an inspection hatch on these? i couldn't really find anything.

Any directions out there for splitting these? I've never split a tractor. I don't think it'll be too much of a problem but would like to make sure i disconnect things in the right order.

Does a clutch alignment tool help?

I have no idea if the 324 has any type of inspection hole ( some tractors do) but if you can't find anything obvious, it probably doesn't.....what you may be able to do though is take the starter off and gain some access to the clutch through the opening that will produce.

They all basically split the same way and there are quite a few threads on TBN/internet describing the process. A search on the subject will bring them up and here is a link to the basics of how it's done Yanmar Tractor Clutch Replacement . An alignment tool helps greatly at times....I've always just made my own but a cheap (but nice) one is only about $15-20 at Harbor Freight or any auto parts store.

iloveketchup said:
i tried adjusting it quite a bit in and nothing. I'll probably try "all the way" to see best or worst case clearance/engagement.

In the video you can see that the fork had previously been about half way on the rod threads for some time and was "tightened" recently. I'll bet the previous owner had done some adjusting ( which is why the pedal didn't have any free play) plus adjusting in that direction can pull the clutch plate away from the flywheel. You're right though, try adjusting "all the way"...... in both directions if need be and see what you get. All of this may just get you to a temporary fix and you'll have to replace the clutch soon anyway but if you have to split the tractor it's not an overwhelming task for someone with some mechanical ability. One or two guys can do it on a Saturday no problem or at worst it's a weekend project for you and should just require basic tools.

iloveketchup · May 15, 2011

the saga continues....

i got it to the point where i can almost pull it apart.

However....

I'm not quite sure how the 4WD mechanism pulls apart. I loosened the back and wondered what else i need to do.

Photos:

https://picasaweb.google.com/ken.mayle/HinomotoE324#

Kernopelli · May 16, 2011

Your set up is different than the ones I have done but I suspect all you will have to do is take the bolts out of the tube housing and when the tractor halves are rolled apart there will be a a yoke that simply slides off a splined shaft end. I tried looking at some parts diagrams on AGCO's website but it appears they have made some recent changes and I can't get the diagram pics to load. The Parts lists describes a 19 spline yoke on several models though so you might have that too based on MF models. This link describing how to do it to a E204 sounds like a very similar setup to yours based upon how the e204's tube housing bolts were configured..... so i would say that after the bolts are taken out the halves should be able to be rolled apart and the shaft dropped. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/grey-market-tractors/150839-hinomoto-e204.html

iloveketchup · May 16, 2011

Kernopelli said:
Your set up is different than the ones I have done but I suspect all you will have to do is take the bolts out of the tube housing and when the tractor halves are rolled apart there will be a a yoke that simply slides off a splined shaft end. I tried looking at some parts diagrams on AGCO's website but it appears they have made some recent changes and I can't get the diagram pics to load. The Parts lists describes a 19 spline yoke on several models though so you might have that too based on MF models. This link describing how to do it to a E204 sounds like a very similar setup to yours based upon how the e204's tube housing bolts were configured..... so i would say that after the bolts are taken out the halves should be able to be rolled apart and the shaft dropped. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/grey-market-tractors/150839-hinomoto-e204.html

Thanks for the reply.

I kind of thought that would be the case. I loosened the 3 bolts on the rear tube flange then quit for the night. I don't want to remove the front if possible. I can't really roll the tractor forward as I'm kind of maxed out in the garage. Murphy's law would have been i do all of the work to split the thing and there was something complex to make at least one side of the tube to come out. I'm wondering how much additional force it will take above what's required to split the tractor.

I guess the best way would be wrapping a rope around the whole thing while i roll it back to avoid dropping anything.

Do i need to drain oil in the rear axle to do this?

Kernopelli · May 16, 2011

iloveketchup said:
Thanks for the reply.

I kind of thought that would be the case. I loosened the 3 bolts on the rear tube flange then quit for the night. I don't want to remove the front if possible. I can't really roll the tractor forward as I'm kind of maxed out in the garage. Murphy's law would have been i do all of the work to split the thing and there was something complex to make at least one side of the tube to come out. I'm wondering how much additional force it will take above what's required to split the tractor.

I guess the best way would be wrapping a rope around the whole thing while i roll it back to avoid dropping anything.

Do i need to drain oil in the rear axle to do this?

I think securing the front while you pull the back half is a good idea.

You shouldn't loose any oil...there is probably an o ring or gasket that seals gunk from getting in the end of the tube/ differential but there shouldn't be any oil there.

iloveketchup · May 16, 2011

Kernopelli said:
I think securing the front while you pull the back half is a good idea.

You shouldn't loose any oil...there is probably an o ring or gasket that seals gunk from getting in the end of the tube/ differential but there shouldn't be any oil there.

Hm.... i know there is little wetness in that area. This would probably be a good time to replace any of those O-rings/seals.

if i only had a parts manual... Hm...

Where aon the ARCO page are you seeing a parts diagram for the MF tractors? I couldn't find anything like that.

I think it's part #40 (3281425M1) however, if i do a google search it doesn't come up. My closest "dealer" is quite a long way aways to not only travel to, but probably pay $40 for a $10 part. Where else can i buy this?

oh yea... don't deal with the guys at Rodio tractor in Hammonton NJ, everyone i'm talking to there to simply order the massey parts are *icks.

Kernopelli · May 16, 2011

iloveketchup said:
Hm.... i know there is little wetness in that area. This would probably be a good time to replace any of those O-rings/seals.

if i only had a parts manual... Hm...

Where aon the ARCO page are you seeing a parts diagram for the MF tractors? I couldn't find anything like that.

I think it's part #40 (3281425M1) however, if i do a google search it doesn't come up. My closest "dealer" is quite a long way aways to not only travel to, but probably pay $40 for a $10 part. Where else can i buy this?

oh yea... don't deal with the guys at Rodio tractor in Hammonton NJ, everyone i'm talking to there to simply order the massey parts are *icks.

I had posted about the AGCO site before in one my responses to you. AGCO Parts Books I usually go to "browse books" to look at the different models. If you go to the home page, enter as guest user. I just went there and was able to see the diagram pics....go figure...they would not load last night. They look exactly like the one you posted. When I first saw it I assumed you had gotten it from the AGCO site. Anyway...I think having the AGCO website can be the next best thing to having a manual for Iseki and Hinomoto owners who can't get manuals for their tractors. It doesn't give repair information of course but just being able to see how items are assembled/break down is of huge benefit at times.

It is not totally uncommon for the brand name dealers to have attitudes toward grey market tractor owners looking for parts...even for the cross over models. Our local MF dealer treated me like crap when he learned I was purchasing parts for a Hinomoto that had a MF direct crossover........last time I ever stepped foot in there. They are not all that way.....just saying, it happens. It's not fair to misrepresent the parts you want and if they don't work to expect them to take them back but it is quite another for them to treat a potential customer like dirt simply because they own a grey market tractor. As far as buying the part, wait to see what condition it is in and if a common metric seal or oring can be purchased to replace it or if it was simply leaking a little because something needed tightened. Sometimes adding an additive like Lucas oil stop leak will fix leaking seals pretty well.

iloveketchup · May 17, 2011

Kernopelli said:
I had posted about the AGCO site before in one my responses to you. AGCO Parts Books I usually go to "browse books" to look at the different models. If you go to the home page, enter as guest user. I just went there and was able to see the diagram pics....go figure...they would not load last night. They look exactly like the one you posted. When I first saw it I assumed you had gotten it from the AGCO site. Anyway...I think having the AGCO website can be the next best thing to having a manual for Iseki and Hinomoto owners who can't get manuals for their tractors. It doesn't give repair information of course but just being able to see how items are assembled/break down is of huge benefit at times.

It is not totally uncommon for the brand name dealers to have attitudes toward grey market tractor owners looking for parts...even for the cross over models. Our local MF dealer treated me like crap when he learned I was purchasing parts for a Hinomoto that had a MF direct crossover........last time I ever stepped foot in there. They are not all that way.....just saying, it happens. It's not fair to misrepresent the parts you want and if they don't work to expect them to take them back but it is quite another for them to treat a potential customer like dirt simply because they own a grey market tractor. As far as buying the part, wait to see what condition it is in and if a common metric seal or oring can be purchased to replace it or if it was simply leaking a little because something needed tightened. Sometimes adding an additive like Lucas oil stop leak will fix leaking seals pretty well.

The guy was just arrogant. It probably would have been just the same if he knew it was an actual Massey. It wasn't about half way through the conversation i mentioned it was for a Hinomoto and he didn't even seem to know what it was. Next time i'll order it through a dealer down south where people tend to be friendlier. I'll never do business with Rodio Tractor unless it was something where i needed the part that day and they had it in stock, and for some reason I HAD to finish it that day.

It just feels overall trying to get massey parts or ordering things through AGCO is super hard compared to Kubota, New Holland or anything Messicks offers.

I have this tractor all supported up and it's ready to split, but si still can't quite coax it into splitting. i wonder if hooking up a vehicle to it and giving a little nudge would help. It sounds dangerous though. I'm not seeing where i could pry against to separate the bell housing. Is there any trick to it?

I have an extra small 4 ton bottle jack... i wonder if i put that hoizonal and used a 4x4 somewhere stable like pressing against the loader bracket if it'd push it off? There has to be a clever way to to this.

Kernopelli · May 18, 2011

I would double check to make certain you have everything disconnected. There are usually a lot of little things; wiring, steering components, hydraulic lines, sheet metal, throttle linkage, fuel line, hard to see or reach bolts holding the cases together, etc, etc and make sure it's not something related to the loader. From the pics, I would have suspected you would have had to take more of it off but it's in front of you, not me and you should be able to tell by looking at it.........I'm not familiar with your model so I can't tell you exactly what you need to do but there may be something you didn't first notice so again, do a double check. I wouldn't use a lot of force just yet ( if ever?) try pulling it apart straight...make sure it's not "cocked" at an angle.

iloveketchup · May 18, 2011

Tractor is apart but a **** hydraulic line is in the way to get it fully separated.

pops claims i shouldn't necessarily HAVE to get it any further than it is ~6 - 8"?

thinks the problem could be the shaft from the transmission got stuck and wasn't releasing.

taking the hydraulic line off would make things easier (the line from the pump to the power steering but... i'll try it without.

The bottle jack / press against the loader seemed to work okay.

https://picasaweb.google.com/ken.mayle/HinomotoE324#

(last few photos)

I have a video i sent to dad trying to figure out the hydraulic line issue (it's in hi def if switched to 720p)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWMJraXxMZY

he says try getting a cheap 1 1/8" end wrench (12 point) at harbor freight and cutting a slit in it to get past the metal hose.

i'll try doing the clutch in the room provided... hopefully the flywheel isn't screwed up and require much of a resurfacing.

Kernopelli · May 19, 2011

iloveketchup said:
Tractor is apart but a **** hydraulic line is in the way to get it fully separated.

pops claims i shouldn't necessarily HAVE to get it any further than it is ~6 - 8"?

thinks the problem could be the shaft from the transmission got stuck and wasn't releasing.

taking the hydraulic line off would make things easier (the line from the pump to the power steering but... i'll try it without.

The bottle jack / press against the loader seemed to work okay.

https://picasaweb.google.com/ken.mayle/HinomotoE324#

(last few photos)

I have a video i sent to dad trying to figure out the hydraulic line issue (it's in hi def if switched to 720p)

YouTube - ‪Hydraulic Line Hinomoto E324‬‏

he says try getting a cheap 1 1/8" end wrench (12 point) at harbor freight and cutting a slit in it to get past the metal hose.

i'll try doing the clutch in the room provided... hopefully the flywheel isn't screwed up and require much of a resurfacing.

Your father brings up a valid point about the shaft. Was there any indication that the hub that the release bearing slides on could have been binding or that the fork wasn't engaging it correctly ( was everything moving freely and correctly between the rod that enters the housing and the pressure plate)?

The large line is the suction line, the small one coming off the bottom is the pressure line. It's hard to tell from the video but it does look like the large "suction boss bolt" will clear the line sitting behind it if you can get it unscrewed. What about using an open end wrench, crescent wrench, vice grips, channel lock pliers, pipe wrench...anything that can grab that nut? I assume this was your first thought but from the video it appears like any of those might work ( I assume there's a reason they wouldn't, I just can't tell what it is from the video). Chances are once it is broken loose it will come out fairly easily.

{I will even throw this out there but with great caution.....sometimes you can get a nut loosened by tapping one of the sides with a chisel to get it to rotate. You DO NOT want to damage anything and not saying it's a good idea in this scenario but I've done it many times on less sensitive parts....this would definitely be a " no other hope" alternative in my book but it can be a viable way to loosen hard to reach nuts}.

I admire the fact that you are tackling this job. You sound like a young man and mention you've never done anything like this before but you have jumped in with both feet anyway. There's a lot of experienced people on this forum that would be too intimidated by the thought of this project to even turn the first bolt. It looks like you have what it takes to get this done so don't get overwhelmed or doubt you can finish the job. Your doing fine!

iloveketchup · May 20, 2011

Kernopelli said:
Your father brings up a valid point about the shaft. Was there any indication that the hub that the release bearing slides on could have been binding or that the fork wasn't engaging it correctly ( was everything moving freely and correctly between the rod that enters the housing and the pressure plate)?

The large line is the suction line, the small one coming off the bottom is the pressure line. It's hard to tell from the video but it does look like the large "suction boss bolt" will clear the line sitting behind it if you can get it unscrewed. What about using an open end wrench, crescent wrench, vice grips, channel lock pliers, pipe wrench...anything that can grab that nut? I assume this was your first thought but from the video it appears like any of those might work ( I assume there's a reason they wouldn't, I just can't tell what it is from the video). Chances are once it is broken loose it will come out fairly easily.

{I will even throw this out there but with great caution.....sometimes you can get a nut loosened by tapping one of the sides with a chisel to get it to rotate. You DO NOT want to damage anything and not saying it's a good idea in this scenario but I've done it many times on less sensitive parts....this would definitely be a " no other hope" alternative in my book but it can be a viable way to loosen hard to reach nuts}.

I admire the fact that you are tackling this job. You sound like a young man and mention you've never done anything like this before but you have jumped in with both feet anyway. There's a lot of experienced people on this forum that would be too intimidated by the thought of this project to even turn the first bolt. It looks like you have what it takes to get this done so don't get overwhelmed or doubt you can finish the job. Your doing fine!

I just go at things slow. I've done... other stuff. and I am an engineer having worked for a major OEM. I didn't do mechanical stuff professionally... just worked on cars growing up. Over the last year i've more got into marine engines. This one just kind of threw me off as i just bought this tractor after selling a Kubota L2850D for a good profit after i got my use out of it. I was hoping this one wouldn't have given me problems like this for a while but.... when it rains it pours. I have no time constraints so this is more or less a hobby but really, I have no choice not to do it. It's this, pay someone 2k+ to do it, or try selling a really odd ball tractor that won't move. So... it is what it is. next time I'll buy the broken tractor dirt cheap and just fix it.

I could crack it ever so loose once the starter was removed (the high pressure line) but then couldn't get much of a turn on it. I needed either a shorter 1 1/8" cresent, or as my dad suggested buy a cheap 12 point end wrench and cut a slit in it.

Fortunately it looks like i can do this without separating the tractor any further. Turns out the pilot bearing for the Massey 1035 is smaller than the Hinomoto Toyosha 1.5 93 CI engine. I managed to get the part number off the NSK bearing and it's NSK 6203DU (same as in Craftsman and Rigid 10" table saws)

I'm not sure if this is a symptom of the thrust bearing froze up, or something else... but the pressure plate is scorn really bad. The flyweel looked perfect.

I tried taking out the pilot bearing using the grease but rather wet toilet paper approach without success. Since i'm waiting on parts, i just ordered a small tight space pilot puller for $25. I've been accumulating all sorts of tools on this little project. Some weren't needed and need to go back.

Till i get parts, i'll probably clean up the flywheel, clean out the bell housing, swap the thrust bearing and maybe get some of the oil and hydraulic filters. Not a whole lot else i can do till parts come :/

that or work on a parking brake that is stuck on a truck i recently bought.

Kernopelli · May 20, 2011

iloveketchup said:
I just go at things slow. I've done... other stuff. and I am an engineer having worked for a major OEM. I didn't do mechanical stuff professionally... just worked on cars growing up. Over the last year i've more got into marine engines. This one just kind of threw me off as i just bought this tractor after selling a Kubota L2850D for a good profit after i got my use out of it. I was hoping this one wouldn't have given me problems like this for a while but.... when it rains it pours. I have no time constraints so this is more or less a hobby but really, I have no choice not to do it. It's this, pay someone 2k+ to do it, or try selling a really odd ball tractor that won't move. So... it is what it is. next time I'll buy the broken tractor dirt cheap and just fix it.

I could crack it ever so loose once the starter was removed (the high pressure line) but then couldn't get much of a turn on it. I needed either a shorter 1 1/8" cresent, or as my dad suggested buy a cheap 12 point end wrench and cut a slit in it.

Fortunately it looks like i can do this without separating the tractor any further. Turns out the pilot bearing for the Massey 1035 is smaller than the Hinomoto Toyosha 1.5 93 CI engine. I managed to get the part number off the NSK bearing and it's NSK 6203DU (same as in Craftsman and Rigid 10" table saws)

I'm not sure if this is a symptom of the thrust bearing froze up, or something else... but the pressure plate is scorn really bad. The flyweel looked perfect.

I tried taking out the pilot bearing using the grease but rather wet toilet paper approach without success. Since i'm waiting on parts, i just ordered a small tight space pilot puller for $25. I've been accumulating all sorts of tools on this little project. Some weren't needed and need to go back.

Till i get parts, i'll probably clean up the flywheel, clean out the bell housing, swap the thrust bearing and maybe get some of the oil and hydraulic filters. Not a whole lot else i can do till parts come :/

that or work on a parking brake that is stuck on a truck i recently bought.

Doesn't look like your making bad time to me in this situation and it pays not to rush things sometimes.As long as you have room to get to everything then I wouldn't worry about the hyd. lines either....just makes it a little easier job with the extra space.

The pressure plate looks like it is heavily grooved from the friction pad rivets. A sure sign that it was time for a new clutch, those rivets should have been well recessed in the pads so they are obviously very worn and a good reason why the pads would slip rather that grab the pressure plate.