Help With Burried Water Lines

CurlyDave · Apr 18, 2006

Curious if you have to have frost protection.

Darned good question.

None of the neighbors seem to have it.

Winter lows are high 20s in degreees F, always above -5 C.

I have seen snow last about a day on the ground, but not longer and only 2-3".

The major part of the pipe will be below the frost line. I think I can get away with insulation at the transition from the wellhead to underground and at the house. But, you just made me realize that I do not want to penetrate concrete at the wellhead or the house. Most of the wellhouse will have a concrete floor, but nice, accessable dirt at the point where the pipe goes underground.

PEX is supposed to not be affected by freezing.

kayssupply · Apr 19, 2006

I installed pumps years ago while serving my apprenticeship. We used the high pressure roll poly pipe. We used it in the well and underground. It would take a lot more abuse than PVC. If we used the PVC in the well it was always srew end SCH 80, so it could be removed for service. The roll pipe could be pulled all at once. If backfilled with clean soil it didn't need any sleeve. A system started by Jaccuzi, that we had very good service with, was using a very high head pump and a regulator. We set the regulator to a point that was just above the shutoff pressure. That way we could use a smaller holding tank. The pump would come on at the set point. It would run as long as there was water being used, one gallon per minute or 20. That way it didn't cycle when showering etc. As soon as the water use stopped it would build up to the shut off and stop. You had a constant flow at any use rate. As close to city pressure ad you can get. As far as chlorine and poly pipe, I haven't seen the research that is current. I do know I have hundreds of feet of it in the ground on chlorinated city water and no problems to date. Some has been in for 20yrs. Several citys in my area use it for all their water service taps. Again only the high pressure rated 200# plus. The 80# , 100# stuff is junk. If you scratch it while installing it, it will rupture on the scratch later.

SkogenMe · Apr 19, 2006

Eddie....Probably didn't come through clearly....where we have used tape it is under the assumption that it may not be pre-located and they are not there to work on the water pipe but are installing some other utility. In that case if you have some clearance over the pipe with the tape, there is the hope that they will snag the tape before they snag the water main.
But in this age of one-call pre-locate requirements that should never happen right /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif....right ...happens all too frequently /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

kayssupply · Apr 20, 2006

In my area they won't locate private lines. The power company just cut a new water line at the house next door to where we were working. They didn't even say they were sorry.

turnkey4099 · Apr 21, 2006

( You do not need the control wire running from the house. All your pump control is interested in is what is the system pressure. It will be the same at the well as at the house (allowing for that 50 psi). It should be possible to find a controller that can be installed at the well, if, of course, you don't install a checkvalve where it is not needed.

Thank you for that insight. I am beginning to see the light.

You and valleydweller1 are right. I think a pressure tank and controller at the well head, and then a booster pump and second pressure tank (this one will need a check valve) at the house is the way to go. This eliminates the return line.

I think I can get a pressure switch which would allow enough pressure to feed a booster pump at the house, and a cursory internet search turned up pressure tanks with 125 psi working pressure. Pressure switches are another matter, but it looked like adjustable ones which I could set to come on @ 80psi and off @ 100psi are available. This would still require a pressure reducer for domestic water at the wellhead, but that is easy.

The pressure tank at the well head is going to need a high enough setting to overcome the height difference betweeen the well head and the house, and the friction in the water line to the house, which is why I think I need the 80/100 settings.

<snip>
)

The checkvalve at the house nees to be on the well side of the booster pump pressure switch. That switch should be set for around 40 (cut-in) to 60 (cut-out).

You don't need that high of a pressure at the well head. anything over 0 psi residual at the house is sufficient to feed the booster pump. I would set the well head system to operate with a cut-off pressure about 60 or 65. Giving a residual of 10-15 psi at the house. You won't lose that much pressure due to the pipe run unless it goes through a bunch of fittings. At that pressure (say 65/85) you could probably get by without a pressure reducer down there.

Harry K

turnkey4099 · Apr 21, 2006

( ( You do not need the control wire running from the house. All your pump control is interested in is what is the system pressure. It will be the same at the well as at the house (allowing for that 50 psi). It should be possible to find a controller that can be installed at the well, if, of course, you don't install a checkvalve where it is not needed.

Thank you for that insight. I am beginning to see the light.

You and valleydweller1 are right. I think a pressure tank and controller at the well head, and then a booster pump and second pressure tank (this one will need a check valve) at the house is the way to go. This eliminates the return line.

I think I can get a pressure switch which would allow enough pressure to feed a booster pump at the house, and a cursory internet search turned up pressure tanks with 125 psi working pressure. Pressure switches are another matter, but it looked like adjustable ones which I could set to come on @ 80psi and off @ 100psi are available. This would still require a pressure reducer for domestic water at the wellhead, but that is easy.

The pressure tank at the well head is going to need a high enough setting to overcome the height difference betweeen the well head and the house, and the friction in the water line to the house, which is why I think I need the 80/100 settings.

<snip>
)

The checkvalve at the house nees to be on the well side of the booster pump pressure switch. That switch should be set for around 40 (cut-in) to 60 (cut-out).

You don't need that high of a pressure at the well head. anything over 0 psi residual at the house is sufficient to feed the booster pump. I would set the well head system to operate with a cut-off pressure about 60 or 65. Giving a residual of 10-15 psi at the house. You won't lose that much pressure due to the pipe run unless it goes through a bunch of fittings. At that pressure (say 65/85) you could probably get by without a pressure reducer down there.

Harry K )

Correction: That should have been 60-65 cut-ON pressure at the well head.

Harry K

rambler · Apr 22, 2006

I'm a simple dirt farmer, so probably don't know much on plumbing. I like things simple. Here in Minnesota, water pipe needs to be 5 foot deep, 6 foot makes it much less likely to freeze. Nobody digs up water pipe with a shovel, as the good fellow from Texas mentioned. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Deep well, submersable pump down there, all controls there, tap off your water leads from there. If you have 100 foot of elevation difference, you'll probably need a pressure regulator to feed the lowest side. I would want the pressure tank right at the well head, but in your case it would need to carry an extra 50lbs of pressure, this _might_ put you into some issues so you might need the tank up by the house. You only need one pressure tank, you only need one pump, and run pipe as short as possible from the well head to where you need it.

To heck with spare lines & control wires & back-feeding pipe flowing reverse right next to your other pipe - just extra expense & complexity. Build the one line right, & don't worry about it for 40 years.

Locally the good flex black pipe in 250 foot rolls is what is used most all the time for private setups on farms when connecting many buildings to the well. Seems to work here. I'd hate something with a zillion glue joints..... I just dug up a galvinized pipe that looked new, has been in the ground flowing water to the barn since the mid 1950's. We have the black plastic running water here for almost as long to the chicken barn - when the new well was put in in '71, tapped into that black plastic line & it is the main supply line to everywhere now.

Galvinized pipe sticking out in the barn freezes full of water almost every day for 4 months of the year, bucket of warm water & it works. Been doing that for 20 years now.

I'd work harder on making one good setup, than a mickey mouse Rube Goldberg setup with a second set of the same pipes.

--->Paul

CurlyDave · Apr 22, 2006

The well driller started today. We had gone into town and he came while we were gone, set up, and had drilled 60' by the time we got back. Started at about noon.

He put in 60' of steel casing, changed to a smaller diameter drill bit and kept drilling. By the time he quit for the day, he was at 200' and we had 3.5 gpm. He is going to keep going on Monday.

3.5 gpm is sufficient for a house, if we put in a 2000 gal storage tank. I am hoping to get enough flow so we do not need a storage tank, don't know what the rules on that are, they are not set by the county, they are set by the local banks. Insufficient well = no loan. It doesn't really matter if you have the cash to buy or build the house without a loan, it would have no resale value if it did did not meet the bank specs.

Anyway, the well location is now set, and we just have to go deeper until we get more water.

Things are looking good for the well. And the control setup is now sorted out, no backfeed, pressure tank at well head, booster pump at house.

PEX vs. PVC is a tougher issue.

turnkey4099 · Apr 22, 2006

Good luck with the new well. I know what the stress level is watching the dollars rolling up with each foot down and praying for a good producing well. I lucked out on mine and hit 20 gpm at only 65 ft but my neighbor just across the street was down in the 4-5 gpm rate after passing 200 ft and said he would take that.

Harry K

EddieWalker · Apr 22, 2006

Dave,

Where did he drill at? Was it on the ridge, close to the road or some place different? What made him chose that particular sight?

Congrats on hitting water, that's got to be a huge relief for you!!! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Eddie

CurlyDave · Apr 22, 2006

Thanks.

The real stress is over at this point -- the well is "good enough" that it doesn't have to get any better. At least my head knows that, even if my heart doesn't.

One of my future projects was going to be a water storage tank anyway. We get enough power failures to make one worthwhile. I just wanted to be able to put one in at my leisure, instead of getting it installed now.

We clearly need a generator, and that is the subject of a future question, gas vs. diesel vs. propane vs. PTO from the tractor. But, the well is 400' from the house and the generator should be at the house. So a gravity-feed water tank might be a nice project.

The other big stress reliever is that the place we had gone to in town, when the driller came out, was the bank. God smiled on us, and we were qualified for a constuction loan whch was quite a bit higher than we, and the contractor, believe the house will cost.

Having a contingency fund available makes it a lot easier to drill an extra 100' or even 200' if necessary.

CurlyDave · Apr 22, 2006

Where did he drill at? Was it on the ridge, close to the road or some place different? What made him chose that particular sight?

It was close to the road. I chose the site, well, kind of sort of.

A neighbor recommended a traditional dowser, who walked the land with me and identified three places he thought would be good. All but this one were very inaccessible and would have required many thousands of road development before the drilling rig could get in.

The driller recommended a second dowser, who used some kind of electronic equipment his girlfriend carried all over the property in a backpack while he talked to her by radio from a truck at the base of the property.

I had removed the stakes the first dowser had placed and marked the spots with various pieces of debris (crushed soda can, old bottle, etc.), so the second dowser wouldn't know what the first one had selected.

He was only willing to mark one place which was different than any of the places the first dowser had selected, but I casually led the woman with the electronics over my favorite spot which was right next to the existing road, and as she stepped over the crushed can I had left in the spot the first dowser had picked, over the radio came "got a hit" loud & clear. We walked around for another 30 minutes and then I led her back to the same place and again "got a hit" just as she stepped over the can.

I took this as confirmation of the spot selected by the first dowser, and since the primary place this guy selected would have required $10k of road development compared to the $15-20k the other places the traditional dowser selected, I decided that the one place they had both sort of agreed on, and which was only 10 feet from an existing gravel road was the right place to try.

Farwell · Apr 22, 2006

I was thinking that it might be the crushed soda can that was triggering the electronic device. LOL
I have heard great stories about dowsers, would not hesitate to use one that had a good success record.
At some point I am going to start searching for a natural spring on my property but am not sure how go about it unless I find a dowser in my area.
Great that you found your water supply.
Farwell

bugstruck · Apr 22, 2006

Dave,

Glad that you have water!! Around here we just punch more depth for reserve so we don't need a storage tank. Fairly costly, but it works. Our county requirements are only 1 GPM but 500 gallons available withing 2 hours of combined reserve and flow. I wouldn't be happy with a 1GPM well, but 3.5 is not bad. You probably need a couple of hundred gallons a day straight house-hold use and you have way more than that. Hope you find some more in the next run down.

You had me smiling when I saw the dowser comments. I don't know about water but why not> I know the old metal rod technique has some merit locating underground utilities.

CurlyDave · Apr 23, 2006

I was thinking that it might be the crushed soda can that was triggering the electronic device. LOL

I didn't worry about it at the time but now that you mention it, it does seem funny.

At some point I am going to start searching for a natural spring on my property but am not sure how go about it

We have at least two year-round natural springs, and possibly a third. I am thinking of developing one for irrigation water, but I would only use one for my primary water supply if all else failed. Wells are pretty much the standard and anything non-standard is going to cause a hit in resale value.

Springs tend to be in inaccessable places -- bottom of a ravine for instance, or on a steep hillside.

Monday morning we start drilling again. I am keeping my fingers crossed. The neighbor has 30+ gpm at 180' and the elevation we are starting from is about 20' higher.

turnkey4099 · Apr 23, 2006

If nothing else, just watching the drilling operation is fascinating. Especially when it hits a water seam. Seeing how fast and far the drill can duck. I assume you have a rotary rig. Amazing that only one man and a bunch of hydralics can handle 20 ft drill stems, drive casing and all the other ancilliary operations.

Harry K

CurlyDave · Apr 24, 2006

Well, now comes the hard decisions. At the end of the day today the driller was at 600' and water was 5 gpm. Barely enough to get by without a holding tank.

He says that the rock formations have a lot of color and appear to be fractured, just the fractures don't have any water in them.

This is enough to get by on, but not to water any kind of lawn or garden.

The way I left it with him was to continue drilling until:

A. he gets 10+ gpm, or

B. he comes to the end of the fractured rock, or

C. he goes down another 200'.

We talked about possibly choosing another place to drill, but as a practical matter, we have enough water for a house and if we want a garden or lawn in a few years drilling will not be any more expensive then than now. In fact, it might be a lot less expensive, since I will have developed better access to the other parts of the property. Also, there is always the possibility of developing a spring for irrigation.

Fortunately the water is deep enough that he doesn't think there is any real possibility of it going dry in a drought.

3RRL · Apr 24, 2006

CurlyDave,
I know how excited you must be drilling your well and also the anxiety, hoping to hit more gallons per minute without going the other 200' deeper. I was fascinated with the drilling operation on my property. I hope you get as lucky as I did and hit that big one on the next shaft he sends down. I don't know if you ever saw that thread about digging the well, but here's a link to our website detailing the experience with our well.
Digging the Well

CurlyDave · Apr 25, 2006

Looks just like what they did at our place. Except for the results.

Hoping for more tomorrow...

dubba · Apr 25, 2006

CD, don't rule out hydrofracking. My abridged story.

7 years ago, I had a new well drilled. End result 320 ft deep, 4GPM.

Last year we planted a lawn, decided to water, called the well guys.

They drilled to 650 ft. Nothing but dry powder everytime they turned off their water supply. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

The salesman said to me, "I know you just spent 4 grand with no results, so let us come & hydrofrack it. If the result is still the same, I personally will pay for the hydrofracking."

Great, another $1500 gamble /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

They came the next day with the hydrofracker. The well was "fracked" in three places, 200', 300' & 400'. The Frackers only carry one pump with them, a 25 GPM job with a matched generator. They pumped out my well for 3 1/2 hours at 200' ( the level of my pump), never ran the well dry.

So the hydrofracking saved me from blowing more money drilling deeper. I was prepared to go to 900', but they had to get more rods, hence the call to the salesman.