HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit

   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #21  
Now being an idiot and knowing nothing about electricity I am still befuzzled by the comment on page 1 about two circuits being more efficient than one. What do you think?
That was my comment. I never did reply to that......sorry about that:eek: All I really meant was to have two relays (or even more) instead of one to carry all the load,and be able to use smaller wire. If it was mine,and I was able to find a nice little panel (that might be the problem),I would have a relay for each motor and possibly split the lights between two more relays.
I should have done a little research on this before I posted that reply.

Greg
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #22  
1st perspective: Paralleling wires:
8 gauge wire has .6281 ohms/1K feet.
10 gauge wire has .9987 ohms/1K feet.
Two 10 gauge wires in parallel have .4994 ohms/1K feet.
So two 10 gauge wires in parallel have less resistance and are more efficient than a single 8 gauge wire, and they effective are a 7 gauge wire.
But I don't think that is what is being suggested, and the two #10s are more expensive than the one #8.

2nd perspective: Paralleling relays:
If the single 40A relay and 8 gauge wire don't look good enough, what if you parallel two 30 amp relays? Well just above it's clear that the wiring part is OK. So now were' down to paralleling relays. In this current range, relays use a silver oxide plating that by design pits, remelts, and changes as loads are applied. In fact, you should not use some of these high current relays for very small loads (like less than 200 milli amps) because they need the current to have the contacts "keep their form". So the problem is that the contact resistance of the two relays is never the same, so the load is never evenly split. This is also true if you double up contacts on a double pole relay (where there is one coil). An additional problem is that the contacts don't close at exactly the same time, so for a brief period of time one set of contacts will be above their rating. This will affect the contact life. Same problem on release.
Now once the relays are all closed, then you might get a 50% improvement or so in the total current capacity of the system due to imbalanced current sharing between the different resistance contacts. So your dual 30's will maybe perform like a single 45 amp relay. And you got twice the coil current. If you've got that much coil current, go up to a 60 amp relay (I deal with form factor concerns in a bit). But this is at the expense of contact life/life of the relay. I'd use the 50% improvement for a double pole in the same case, and expect about 1/4 the life. If you're talking two separate relays (like two ice cube relays) I'd expect it to be worse.
If you did this and energized the relays under no or low load, you'd still get the current sharing and not have the contact wear problem. But who here has not got into a car the next morning after driving during a raining night and had the wipers and radio blast on when you crank it. I know I've left the cab fan and AC on full and then turned the tractor on. So this is not an option.

Long story short: Don't parallel relays to get more capacity. In the long run, it will go bad and may do so most dramatically (fire).

3rd perspective: Split circuits:
Now look at two 30 or 40 amp relays, and the correct wire size from them, with each relay and wire driving about half of the circuits in the cab add on. If those circuits can be split up, this works fine and it's an economic or logistic call as to if this is a good idea. Information missing thus far in this post is how and where the wires for the cab connections exist. Is there just one big wire for switched battery to the cab that feeds a bank of switches, or is there a wire per major circuit (lights, fan, etc) or wire per switch? Mention is made of the "switch panel overhead" and that "all fusing must be done independently". But it does not state if there is a wire per fused circuit or switch or just one big feed. The location of these wires is also not clear. If it's out of the bottom of the cab, then a fuse block can be added under the tractor with a fuse per circuit. That also means there is room for a bigger relay (as long as there is a fuse close to the battery for the line feeding the relay).
It's not clear if the motivation for the ice cube relay is a desire to use a free spot in the existing relay and fuse panel of the tractor or not. If that is the desire, then a check should be done to see if the main line from the battery feeding the panel can supply the extra 40 amps of current.

With all this information not known, it's hard to suggest a solution. So Steve I don't understand the "two circuits being more efficient than one" but I don't have enough of a picture of how the add on cab is wired and what the OPs wishes are regarding physical layout. It would also be useful to find out if the hardness in a 4120 is the same as a cab version in the 4000 series, as that would shed light on if the extra current is available from the harness or if the cab should be powered off of a new connection to the battery. I have a gut feeling that the molding for the fuse and relay panel are common in the 4000 series, but that the 4120 might have a different wire harness to cut cost and not have the extra capacity for cab power.

Hope this is clear. I actually have posted a few 1-2 line replies in other threads, hard as that may be for everyone to believe.

Pete
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #23  
Now being an idiot and knowing nothing about electricity I am still befuzzled by the comment on page 1 about two circuits being more efficient than one. What do you think?
I said that,and the more I think about it,two isn't even enough,or should I say not good enough. You can never have too many circuits.
Why wouldn't they (factory) have put a nice little six or so circuit panel in the cab and be done with it? If there is such an animal out there,that might be the better route to take. I don't know,maybe I'm full of it:)
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #24  
I think once the way the wires "come out of the cab" is known and the OP's desires regarding relay placement are known, the solution will be clear.

On the 4520 there are 16 fuse positions and 4 relay positions. The cab versions uses many more of the fuse positions for cab circuits, and it uses one more relay (for the work lights). I'd have to go back to the parts manual to see if the harnesses have different part numbers (cab vs. open) or not and/or check out what the gauge of the wire feeding the fuse panel is.

So another question is does the 4120 have the same molding for the fuse panel (16 fuses, 4 relays), are all the positions active and able to be used, does the main feed from the battery have the capacity for more stuff, and which circuits switch off when the starter motor is running.

On my truck, I took a 60 amp feed off the battery and ran it to a fuse block. Brought in 2 20 amp feeds and two 10 amp feeds to inside the cab for "stuff". Indeed glc24, you can never have too many circuits.

Pete
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #25  
Otterbrookstables,

On my Laurin cab I have a fuse panel in the upper roof section with an access panel to dirstribute the power to the various loads. This makes for a short run to the switches for fan, wipers and lighting. You may wan't to check on getting a small 6 circuit fuse panel if you have a place to mount it, these are available with a weatherproof cover. Makes for a neat installation as well as adding some organization to the wiring.

I agree with proper bonding of the cab and frame to get good contact for your ground path, this is just as important as the positive lead.


I see no advantage to running two circuits instead of one larger curcuit to your distribution point. If you needed more power you could go with a 6 ga lead, but the problem would be that your alternator couldn't keep up if that were the case.

I keep mentioning the boating stores because they are a good source of weather resistant wiring materials including relays, circuit breakers, terminals and timmed wire. The conditions a tractor operates under with snow and rain and chemicals would be well served with marine grade wiring components.




My suggestion on page two, #12

The OP said there was no fuse panel with the cab at hand.
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #26  
Guess I'm confused. In the original post, the OP said he had:
The 40 amp relay, wires, and all the fuse holders

If it's like Steve's, then Steve's solution is the best. I'm assuming here that Steve's "fuse panel int he upper roof section with an access panel..." is one he added, not something that came with the cab since the OP said there was no fuse panel with the cab. I'd rather have the fuse block with access than a bunch of individual in line fuses hidden around the area of the switches.

And it sounds like the OP has fuse holders, but it's not clear what they are for or how they will be installed. Are they in-line and he will wire them in before the switches, or do they go in after the switches (so all the switches are connected to the 40A main line)? If they are in-line holders, are they just tucked into the cab somewhere that requires a lot of disassembly if a fuse blows? Is the plan to use spare fuse holders in the fuse block and run down lots of wires for each switch? Ok, let me get back to the core of the thread....

Reading all the post again, reflection on Steve's after market cab experience, making some assumptions, I'd say:

1) Check the harness to see that you can add the 40 amp cube relay. Make sure alternator has the juice. Suspect cab manufacture has already scoped this out, but double check.
2) Add relay, run a #8 wire (SO would be easiest) up to the cab. If you want, parallel the conductions in the SO cable, doesn't hurt anything. You could run a #12 SO and parallel all 3 conductors. That would be .5293 ohms/1K feet vs. the .6281 ohms/1K feet for a #8 and this keeps the cable size down.
3) Make sure there is a big ground strap from the cab to the chassis.
4) Add 6 circuit automotive fuse pannel in the cab, create access panel for it.
4) Each switch now has it's own fuse.

If you ignore (4) and scatter the inline fuses in the cab, you'll hate it later. Imagine if a tractor had inline fuses scattered around in the harness instead of at a central location. There's no heck like the heck we make for ourselves.

Finally, point (2) address the core point for the OP's post.

Pete
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #27  
Thanks Pete,

My Laurin cab came with the wiring and fuse block built in, and was supplied with a 40 amp #8 supply lead and fuse. This was on the 110tlb, I will have to see where I tied this in, but I followed instructions. When I ordered the tractor I opted for the larger 55 amp alternator which I think is standard equipment now.

The OP, Otterbrookstables is mounting a different cab on his 4120 which does not come with the built in fuse panel or wiring as I understand. So he is starting from scratch.

Just wanted to clarify this.
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit #28  
Based on that data, I might modify my #4 item and investigate mounting the fuse block in a box under the tractor, since that might be easier and look better than creating an access hole in the cab. Radio Shack might have a box it can fit it, mount it with the fuses upside down so water is not a problem. Don't want water tight, just want shielding from droplets and debris. Be sure there is a drain hole or crack at the bottom of the box (1/8" diameter is fine). Then run down a wire per switch or circuit to the box, come in with a grommet or caterpillar on the edge of the metal. For strength reasons, no wire smaller than a #14, and would run stranded THHN and put them all in a loom or spiral wrap. Box stores can cut to length and lots of colors to use.
#14 for 15 amp or less
#12 for 15 to 20 amp
#10 for 20 to 30 amp

Pete
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit
  • Thread Starter
#29  
Thanks Pete,

My Laurin cab came with the wiring and fuse block built in, and was supplied with a 40 amp #8 supply lead and fuse. This was on the 110tlb, I will have to see where I tied this in, but I followed instructions. When I ordered the tractor I opted for the larger 55 amp alternator which I think is standard equipment now.

The OP, Otterbrookstables is mounting a different cab on his 4120 which does not come with the built in fuse panel or wiring as I understand. So he is starting from scratch.

Just wanted to clarify this.

Yep - that's my situation. I have plenty of capacity - my 4120 has a 70A alternator. I have an overhead switch panel in my cab, but no fuse block or relays. The research I did on the Painless products (posted earlier) is really surprising. Those kits are used in exactly this kind of application and they use nothing larger than 10 or 12 awg wire for 40A. I don't have the guts to put a #10 wire in there for my application - it just aint right!. You can't run two #10's in parallel to feed one relay. It is against best practices and bad things can happen if one wire should fail. I will probably end up running two 30A relay circuits, each fed by a #10 wire. Hate to do this, but I just cannot find any connectors for #8 wire. Actually, I can find ring terminals, but no spade or but connectors. Headed to NAPA today to pick up the relays. I'll keep you guys posted on progress.
 
   / HELP!! Wire size recommendations for 4120 cab power circuit
  • Thread Starter
#30  
Based on that data, I might modify my #4 item and investigate mounting the fuse block in a box under the tractor, since that might be easier and look better than creating an access hole in the cab. Radio Shack might have a box it can fit it, mount it with the fuses upside down so water is not a problem. Don't want water tight, just want shielding from droplets and debris. Be sure there is a drain hole or crack at the bottom of the box (1/8" diameter is fine). Then run down a wire per switch or circuit to the box, come in with a grommet or caterpillar on the edge of the metal. For strength reasons, no wire smaller than a #14, and would run stranded THHN and put them all in a loom or spiral wrap. Box stores can cut to length and lots of colors to use.
#14 for 15 amp or less
#12 for 15 to 20 amp
#10 for 20 to 30 amp

Pete

Good thought, but I don't need to go that route. I can easily route my power feed wires up inside the frame of the cab and then install the relays and fuses in the overhead switch panel. If they won't fit, I have plenty of room to mount a box in the overhead of my cab. I am well aware of the current carrying capacity of wire, but did you see my prior post on Painless products? They are considered very good quality, and build kits for just this application. They use nothing larger than 10 or 12 wire for a 40A kit. :confused::confused:
 

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