HELP..rear wheel breaks off!

ejb · Jun 11, 2000

Darn!, just when we get a few days dry enough to cut my fields...my JD5410, less than 75 hours on it, I am driving along (luckily at a slow speed on level ground) and the left rear wheel breaks off and falls to the ground...upon closer examination, it looks like the bolts loosened up and fell out and the rest of them broke off...pretty scary experience!.

The question is, now what do I do? I checked all three other tires, and not a single bolt on any of the other three wheels is loose, which leads me to beleive that this tire was not put on the tractor right; I figure if bolts are prone to losen than they should loosen up on all the tires not just one of them, right?

The problem is several fold:

1. the "disk" that bolts to the rim (and thru which the bolts pass) is completey stripped, the holes which I assume were once round are now three times the normal size and oval...definitely need to replace this.

2. One bolt did not fall out, but broke off, so half of it is still in the axel, any ideas on how to get that out? If I knew how to weld I would guess trying to get something welded on there so that it can be unscrewed would do it? what about drilling into it and try to get it out that way?

4 or 5 of the holes look "OK", and may accept a new bolt, 1-2 of the holes look fair, any may accept a new bolt with some encouragment and 1-2 of the holes look marginal, and may be stripped beyond repair, but I can't tell for sure. Anyone think you can re-thread the bad ones? or does the whole axel need to be replaced? Anyone think, I could get away with using 6 or 7 out of 8 bolts long-term? I don't even want to think about what a new rear-axel is going to cost me if it comes to that?

Anyone think I could get away with using 3-4 bolts, and the existing stipped dish long-enough to drive the tractor back from the field into my shop (it looks awfully sad sitting on their in the fields with no wheel on it...)

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly...IS THIS A WARRANTY ISSUE? My feeling is that it is and the dealership must not have checked the bolts after the tire was taken off (to put in a tube and fill it), in order for 7 of the 8 bolts to fall off and the last one to break off. How many of you guys check the torque on your lug-nuts on a periodic basis? (Maybe you should now). What would be the best approach for getting this resolved as quickly as posssible, unfortunately, my dealer was closed by mid-afternoon yesterday when this happened so I have to sit and stew at least until Monday.

Any or all words of wisdom appreciated!

Bird · Jun 11, 2000

ejb, that's a tough thing to happen to a new tractor./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif I think every car, truck, trailer, and tractor manufacturer includes a statement in the manual to check the torque on the lug nuts (or bolts) frequently, so they can avoid the liability for accidents. My Kubota manual says to check them every 50 hours. Now I doubt that anyone actually does it, other than maybe once or twice when they're new. It sure does sound as if someone forgot to tighten that one wheel when they put it back on, and I believe I would expect the dealer that took them off to put the tube in and fill them to warranty that. Of course, I'd approach them courteously, telling them about the problem, but with the attitude that I just naturally assumed they were going to make it right.

As for your other questions, you can drill into the center of a bolt and sometimes remove it with as easy out, but remember that lug bolts are pretty hard steel. And damaged threads can sometimes be re-threaded, but in your situation (something as serious as holding the wheels on, and an almost new tractor), I'd want it fixed right and completely.

Bird

W5FL · Jun 11, 2000

After normal legal disclaimer.....

If you are going to do the repairs yourself, I would jack it up and see if you can get 4 or 5 of the lugbolts holding the wheel and drive very slowly back to the shop stopping every 100 feet or so to be sure nothing is moving. I don't believe there is a back on the axle plate, so you may be able to put nuts on the other bolts anyway. The dealer has dealt with this before, if you are going to have him do it.

It is NOT a warranty issue, but it is an expensive issue. The dealer (or you) will have to put in the 1/2 rear axle to fix it. It is possible that JD makes an adapter plate that can bolt to the old flange and save pulling the axle.

Sure hate you had this kind of problems, but let us know what they did to get it going again.

p.s. My Wife has a Jeep Cherokee and every single bolt on the car was locktited by the factory. They must have had problems too.

W5FL · Jun 12, 2000

ejb

When the front casting broke on my old Massey, it stopped dead when the front end hit the ground and had no front wheels at all. My son had been mowing at 5 mph or so and he said it felt like he was going over the steering wheel. It had no seat belt.

We got a guy with another tractor to help us get it out of the field. However; in retrospec, it would have been cheaper to have called a wrecker to move the tractor. Did another $100 worth of damage to the radiator moving it with a front end loader holding the front of the tractor off the ground.

Your case is different (if the ground is dry) and if you can put nuts on those bolts, you may be rolling quickly. Good luck.

ejb · Jun 12, 2000

If, I have to replace 1/2 of the rear axle, any guess as to how much money I am looking at? My guess is its going to cost about 8 hours labor ( x $40-$65/hr) and around $300-$400 for parts, which gets me somewhere in the $700-$1000 area. Seem about right?

Replacing the axel doesn't seem like the type of job I want to do myself...I am pretty handy but this is something that if I screwed up it would cause major problems.

Also, why not a warranty issue? I am undecided myself as to whether or not it is...half my brain says I should have been smart enough to catch it (I am very good about regular maintenance), and the other half of my brain KNOWS that that wheel couldn't have been put on right...

The bright side is I know it could have been a lot worse, had I not had the 7 foot rotary mower on, It may have rolled right over, especially since just the previous day I was cutting on some steep-ish hills.

ejb · Jun 12, 2000

...continued, If it turns out that the 1/2 rear axel replacment is god awful expensive, and I can't afford it right now, what do you guys think about this:

I need to get a new "dish" anyway(the part that fits inside the rim); that can't cost more than about $150 (I hope) and new lug bolts.

See how many of the holes are still good. I have a feeling that 4 or 5 will be just fine.

See how many of the remaining holes I can "encourage" a new bolt thru with my impact wrench...my guess is that 2 of them at least will work, which will leave me with 1 or 2 that won't accept a new bolt even w/encouragment.

My question: how much damage might I do if I really try and force a bolt in there and it won't go? Its already stripped (the front 1/3 of the threads) so can I make it worse?

Another question, say 1 or 2 are stripped beyond repair, what do you think about drilling out the threads to make a smooth hole, and then using a slight larger, like 1/32 or 1/16ths (and longer) bolt, and then put a nut on the backside to hold it in place. Seems like if it was done right it would avoid the need for an expensive (possibly) new rear axel.

I know that the "right" thing to do is replace the axel, but I am trying to figure out ahead of time what my options will be.

Thanks all.

(...and thanks for no "Kubota would never have these types of problem" wise-cracks, it wouldn't be a good time for that)

TomG · Jun 12, 2000

Real sorry that happened.

I wouldn't give up on the warranty issue. As mentioned, a diplomatic approach to the dealer might get it fixed. If that doesn't work, it might be worth a lawyer letter. Large organizations often will settle rather than risk a court case. Court cases make bad publicity and may set a disadvantageous precedent.

You might want to document the situation as much as possible. Detailed pictures of the damage would be good, and a reconstructed log of the tractor's use and any service performed by you or the dealer is useful. The first step in a liability action is called 'discovery,' and it's all about documentation.

The second day I had my used tractor, the steering arm came off the sector. Fortunately, no damage done. Good thing I was able to steer with the brakes. I remember driving back by holding the steering arm on with my toes. I do periodically do go through a tightening routine. It's an habit acquired from working on old British motorcycles, but I hadn't gotten around to it yet for the tractor. I was brand new, and just wanted to 'move that pile of dirt.'

art · Jun 12, 2000

The warrantee issue is grey as keeping your wheels tight is the owners repondsibilty. Often times when wheel holes get stripped out we put in longer bolts with a nut on the back and a washer on the front. Not perfect to look at but does get people by but this to would need to be retorqued after some use.

Thomas · Jun 12, 2000

I doubt very much if your dealer will will consume the cost of the repair.

Can you insert one size smaller bolt w/ a lock washer and nut enought to limp back?

A good machine shop or equipment mechanic might beable to do the repairs on site.

I also lost a back wheel on my Speedex tractor,for Speedex use nylon nuts at one time and when the wheel came lose the fender was badly damage.
The total cost was about $350.oo,rim,repairs,new fender,paint.

I seen on the older tractors where king pin nuts are installed,and I kinda wonder the pros and cons of that idea for the rear.

Take care and good luck.

Thomas..NH

JerryG · Jun 12, 2000

ejb, what I would do if my dealer wouldn't fix it is. I would put in a heli-coil. Go to your local auto parts place and tell them you want a heli-coil KIT for the size you bolt was. That large of size will have to be ordered. In the kit you will get a special size drill, some coil threads and a inserter tool. The threads will be as strong as originally or stronger. JerryG

David USMC · Jun 12, 2000

ejb, Im real curious to see how your dealer responds especially if you approach him with your hat in your hands and paint the what if issue of an accident that resulted in personal injury. Maybe if he wouldn't bare the total cost of half an axle replacement maybe you could pay for the parts and he would provide the labor. That way you would have the peace of mind to know it was done per specs and he could be released from any liability down the road.

W5FL · Jun 12, 2000

Looks like you got a lot of good advice.

I would not force bolts through messed up threads. Just buy a good tap and try to retap the hole. The problem you may have is that the part is fairly hard. Helicoils are possible, but again you have to do a lot of machine work on the axle.

The dealer may work a deal with you to split the cost and is possible that he will pick it all up because he knows that someone didn't do their job right on a new tractor. I would not consider trying to force him to do it. The threat of legal action is counter productive and then any possible solutions will be made by the wrong people and take a long time and cost more than the repair. Most dealers are required as a part of the make ready to torque all lug bolts and the factory puts a paint stripe on them to prove that they did it. Now, even Discount Tire requires their employees to torque every nut on your auto wheels and sign the ticket that they have done it. It is a problem.

If I had to fix it, I believe I could do it where it would suit me, but for the money involved, I would take Bird's advice and get it fixed right.

Just glad you are not hurt! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

ejb · Jun 12, 2000

HELP..rear wheel breaks off! - Good News..

Yi ha! after sweating it out all weekend about how much dough this mis-hap was going to cost me and how long I would be w/out a tractor, I have good news to report. Went to my dealer this morning, and w/out even a second of hesitation, he agreed to order to the parts I would need and come out Wed or Thursday and do the repairs, all covered under warranty.

He was not at all concerned about the few stripped threads, and he rightly pointed out (w/out having seen the tractor), that in all likelihood only the first few threads would be striped and the rest of them would be plenty to hold the bolt in place. He did make a point that I should be checking the bolts regularly (and especially the big bolts that hold the loader on).

Very refreshing these days, when I expect to be disappointed in almost every customer-service interaction I have, this was a pleasant suprise.

I felt so good when I left the place I wanted to buy another tractor from them just to show how happy I was...(but I didn't). But makes me feel good about picking them in the first place, and defintely will continue to send business their way whenever I can.

Thanks everyone for the input.

MJB · Jun 12, 2000

It may be possible that the wheel was properly torqued at the factory. I know that many cars built up until the 1930's and 40's used left hand threads on the lug nuts on the left side of the vehicle. (I have a 1947 Willys CJ2A that has this feature.) It seems the the rotation of the wheel tends to loosen the lugs on the left side if they are right hand thread. I believe that the increased vibration that a tractor sees could cause the lugs to work loose even if they were torqued properly, especially on a new machine where there isn't any rust on the lugs. No matter which way you decide to fix it I would certainly invest in some Loctite thread locker to put on the lugs of all the wheels, and recheck the torque whenever you service the tractor. Good Luck

David USMC · Jun 12, 2000

EJB,glad to hear the good news. Mike S,Check Westerfield and yourself are testimony to how good these dealers can be. Maybe the dealers efforts at the grassroots level will keep Deere at the top. I hope the corporate types at Deere will adequately compensate the dealer for the repair. If they do, and probably have in the past by the sound of it, the dealer will always be more proactive in a situation such as yours. The advice about the lock tite is excellent. In aviation crucial nuts on critical assemblies such as main gear trucks are always safety wired .

Mike H · Jun 12, 2000

Threaded fasteners. What a wonderful topic - books have been written on it. Unfortunately, I've had to read several of them! When my dealer dropped off my tractor a couple of weeks ago, he specifically said to be sure to check the wheel bolts 'periodically'. He said this was "because they were steel rims". I kind of chuckled and left that one alone; however, the conclusion was right even if the reasoning was shaky. If I had to place a wager (and I'm not), I would guess that a wheel coming off at 75 hrs, was not a factory installation problem.

Oversimplified, I'd say the three key factors in the connection are:

1. Preload - that's what the torque req't is. If this isn't done correctly, the bolt can come loose (with either too high or too low a preload).
2. Joint Stiffness - this is materials. The dealer's 'steel rim' comment could apply here. The preload specified is specific to the materials the joint was designed for. Change rims, change fasteners, the preload could be wrong.
3. Load - Unless there's a basic design flaw, vibration or impact loading are the surprises that can catch or overwhelm a joint. There is always a load at which the joint will fail (material failure or bolt loosening). In the aerospace industry we used to always loctite then safetywire every threaded connection to ensure integrity.

My recommendation would be to periodically check any bolt on the tractor that was installed as an 'add on'. These would be bolts that aren't painted. Paint is a great "loose detector" - you can just look at these bolts and see if they're moving. Wheel bolts, add on brackets for things like loaders, backhoes, mowers, etc. fit this category.

On my tractor, what jumped out at me was the nice shiny Gr. 5 bolts on the nice shiny painted white rims. I'll bet nearly every tractor is done like this but from a joint design standpoint (perhaps theoretical) this is a no-no. The joint could be relying on the paint! I'd bet 999 times out of 1000 (maybe less) the paint scrapes off during initial torqueing but the one time it doesn't . . .

I'd bet dealers all have stories of bolts loosening. I think it's prudent to make a point of looking these over, just like all the other things you're regularly checking over on any piece of mechanical equipment.

gordon · Jun 12, 2000

Re: HELP..rear wheel breaks off! - Good News..

Your dealer is a good and a very smart one. Why argue the fact of what happened it needed fixed and you weren't abusing the tractor so this was the smart move on the dealer.
He may eat some of the time on the job but he now has a loyal customer instead of a pissed off one. It's a shame more dealers don't treat their customers like this. Never burn your bridges./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Main thing reguardless of the who pays is that no one was hurt.
This can happen to any make of tractor or car so it's a very smart thing to check./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
gordon

JimBinMI · Jun 12, 2000

Re: HELP..rear wheel breaks off! - Good News..

Gordon,

Absolutely! Good thing for all of us to do, sure some have already, I will the next time I use the <font color=blue>Mighty TC18 Boomer!</font color=blue>

We all benefit from sharing on the board, thanks!

JimBinMI

We boys and our toys!

GaryK · Jun 13, 2000

not that I don't trust the dealer, but when I got my tractor home i took out my trusty torque wrench and checked the wheels. i found more than a couple out of spec and one loose. Also found the tire pressures off. i do this on any piece of equipment or vehicle when is comes back from a dealer(check out the work etc.). That way I'm happy and I have no accidents down the road.