Help me make a decision

[TJP89]

"[Snip] MFWD is really a convenience feature, not a necessity to accomplish the job.

I couldn't help but notice that the staunch MFWD supporters all have smaller tractors that are probably outfitted with R4 tires or even turfs. (Minus the H) Yes you are going to need MFWD with R4s because they are worthless in soft soil. I run nothing but Ag tires designed for traction. R4s were designed for minimal soil disturbances. Sliding into ditches, really TJP89? You must have your brake pedals locked together all the time. Here's the nice thing about independent brakes, you use them to steer the tractor when you can't use the steering wheel.[Snip]"

You are correct, my brakes have never been unlocked. Due to Kioti's moronic decision to put the clutch on the left, and the brakes AND the HST treadle pedal on the right, it is impossible to use the brakes unless the cruise is on. As the locking mechanism is beyond my comprehension, I have yet to unlock them. Don't get me started:mur:

I do have ag tires, and a heavy tractor. My ditch sliding happened on a JD gear tractor, where despite brakes and diff lock, I went into a small ditch in the snow and ice. Attempts to get it out in 2WD were unsuccessful, engaged the front axle and out she came. Brakes are no good in deep snow, 4WD is. When I had 18in of snow to plow, I didn't use the H, which has split brakes and 2WD, I used the Kioti with no split brakes and 4WD. I could not have plowed the driveway that day, and days, and done other jobs, without 4WD. Therefore it is a necessity. Unless you are always working on dry flat land with no snow, MFWD is one the most important features of a tractor.

 

[flusher]

"I am trying to maintain about 70 acres of family land and need to bush hog about 40 acres, some of it in tight places"

That's a lot of acres to mow with a 6-ft hog--which is the size that matches the HP range you're eyeballing. I mowed about 7 acres of my 10 acre place with a 2008 Mahindra 5525 (55 hp engine, 45 hp pto, 2WD, 8F/2R, power steering) and a 6-ft Hawkline hog. My place was flat so I could mow those 7 acres in about 3 hours.

Simple tractors--can't get much simpler than that 5525. Cost about $19K lnew with the ML250 FEL (6-ft wide bucket, 2950 lb lift to 10.5 ft height, skid steer quick attach), triple rear hydraulic remotes and the brush hog.

Good luck

 

[GManBart]

Jeez, the defense of Mechanical Front Wheel Drive. I never said I was against it and that I would like one. For Tim's needs and budget restraints, a larger 2wd with FEL (3rd function) would be the better option. MFWD is really a convenience feature, not a necessity to accomplish the job.

I couldn't help but notice that the staunch MFWD supporters all have smaller tractors that are probably outfitted with R4 tires or even turfs. (Minus the H) Yes you are going to need MFWD with R4s because they are worthless in soft soil. I run nothing but Ag tires designed for traction. R4s were designed for minimal soil disturbances. Sliding into ditches, really TJP89? You must have your brake pedals locked together all the time. Here's the nice thing about independent brakes, you use them to steer the tractor when you can't use the steering wheel.

I operate semis, roll off truck, articulating dirt trucks, bulldozers, excavators, backhoes, skid steers, 2wd and MFWD tractors (CUT to Row Crops stopping short of tracks and articulating 4WDs). All of them with the old lever styles or joysticks. I however have not had the pleasure of operating a combine or windrower yet. I may get to add windrower to the list since I'm considering getting one. I would say I have a fair amount of equipment experience, I use them on the farm or my part time job. I have never got a 2wd utility tractor stuck using Ag tires.

So Tim, do not fear the 2wd and a loader. As long as you have Ag tires, a little sense, and your brakes unlocked you will be fine. You have to remember MFWD is a luxury add on for a tractor, much like a pickup truck. My advice is based on a professional operator's experience and understanding you are under a budget and need to get a job done. I've never heard a guy say "Man, I wish my tractor had less power." I understand buying with a budget. I'm in the market for a minimum 80hp pto cab tractor. Yes I would like it to have a loader and MFWD but I can make do with 2WD to stay in budget.

I'm guessing you didn't intend it this way, and I'm really not trying to cause an issue, but this post comes across as fairly condescending...a "professional operator's experience," as if others commenting here don't know what they're talking about. Some of the folks posting in this thread are long time members with many decades of experience behind them. You're certainly entitled to your opinion...no question, but this topic gets debated regularly, and there simply will never be agreement on it from some folks.

4x4 isn't a luxury feature if you're operating somewhere that requires it, and unless I've missed something, you haven't been to the OP's property to look at it, so it's going to be pretty hard to really know what he needs.

My Massey is only 2wd, so I'm not against 2wd machines at all, but suggesting you can always do the exact same jobs with a large 2wd tractor with an FEL as a 4wd tractor with an FEL is silly. 2wd tractors don't have front brakes, so any time you go down a hill with a loaded bucket you have to back up or risk losing control. There are times when you may not be able to back down the hill...what do you do then? That's just one situation where 4x4 can let you do something that a 2wd tractor can not, and there are others.

I ran into a situation where I had to go down a narrow earth ramp to a low, wet area with no way to turn around at the bottom. In 2wd the machine wouldn't back up the ramp because all the weight was on the front tires....with FWA it backed up with no trouble. In fact, the first trip down that ramp I hadn't engaged 4wd, and the rear tires spun enough that the machine settled and the loader wasn't enough to push it free. I had to lift it with the hoe and FEL to get the tires on better ground, then it would climb out in 4wd. A 2wd machine would have had to be pulled out. After that first trip all I had to do was make sure 4wd was engaged and it wasn't a problem at all.

In many cases 4wd isn't necessary, but in many cases it makes all the difference in the world.

 

[jenkinsph]

There is a difference between using what you have and buying what is optimum or best long-term. While I agree that a 2wd can be effective and had them for many years I would still recommend most people to buy a mfwd tractor.

 

[oldpilgrim]

I'm guessing you didn't intend it this way, but this post comes across as fairly condescending...a "professional operator's experience," as if others commenting here don't know what they're talking about.

4x4 isn't a luxury feature if you're operating somewhere that requires it, and unless I've missed something, you haven't been to the OP's property to look at it, so it's going to be pretty hard to really know what he needs.
.............................

I ran into a situation where I had to go down a narrow earth ramp to a low, wet area with no way to turn around at the bottom. In 2wd the machine wouldn't back up the ramp because all the weight was on the front tires....with FWA it backed up with no trouble. In fact, the first trip down that ramp I hadn't engaged 4wd, and the rear tires spun enough that the machine settled and the loader wasn't enough to push it free. I had to lift it with the hoe and FEL to get the tires on better ground, then it would climb out in 4wd. A 2wd machine would have had to be pulled out. After that first trip all I had to do was make sure 4wd was engaged and it wasn't a problem at all.

In many cases 4wd isn't necessary, but in many cases it makes all the difference in the world.

sorta like this?

 

[GManBart]

sorta like this?

Similar, although much worse

 

[crashz]

Nice Rock!

Flusher makes a good point. That's a lot of property to mow with a 6 ft brush hog. Takes us days with a 5 footer for about 20 acres.

 

[TJP89]

sorta like this?

I'm guessing the rock won there, at least temporarily?

 

[oldpilgrim]

I'm guessing the rock won there, at least temporarily?

yup but I shaved it's head with a jackhammer and made it thin enough so I could cover up the rest of it.

I could have never dug like that with a 2wd.

 

[paulfun9]

4x4 isn't a luxury feature if you're operating somewhere that requires it, and unless I've missed something, you haven't been to the OP's property to look at it, so it's going to be pretty hard to really know what he needs.


.

.

Are you serious? The hole darn machine is a luxury and every option on it as well!

I have lived and operated with 2 wheel drive for the majority of my life and we always managed to get the job done. To this day my 2 wheel drive machines out number my 4 wheel drive machines and I still use a 2 wheel drive machine for many jobs both summer and winter.

Yes I agree that 4 wheel drive makes many things easy but when budget constraints limit your needs/wants you have to make choices such as do I want to spend all day working that field or would it be more feasible to have a machine with 2 wheel drive and a 15 foot batwing and have to spend a little time prepping it for winter plow duties? ( which for me only means the installation of tire chains and some extra ballast). Yes that's right folks many of the jobs folks are describing have been done over and over again with the common sense approach successfully with 2 wheel drive for a long time. Some of those jobs have needed the help of a neighbors tractor to speed the process up but they still got done without resorting to using the wheelbarrow.

I wish we had all the digital camera stuff now back when, so I could post pictures of all the jobs that have been accomplished with 2 wheel drive! I assure the poster that the rock in the pics posted here is nothing compared to some we have dug out with 2 wheel drive and we didn't always have the luxury of just putting it back in the ground deeper. They came out and got hauled away with trucks that today you would wonder how they could even haul the groceries home from the store much less a weight that would make you cringe as they loaded into todays big trucks!

We recently sub divided a large part of our property and sold it to family members who wanted to move back home from the city. For some of them I actually recommended they purchase 2 wheel drive tractors to maintain their property as with the common sense approach they will be able to get most jobs done with no problems and very little frustration with others. For two of them I recommended they purchase 4 wheel drive and split the cost on a dozer or tracked loader with some real weight because their properties will require it. Now the two properties with 2 wheel drive are not flat and they will have to use a better strategy when doing some jobs but their pockets just simply could not afford a machine big enough to do their primary tasks without self destructing over time that also had 4 wheel drive. SO their budget prevailed and they now have well used 2x machines with all the gear they need to get the jobs at hand done without breaking the bank. Yes I am sure they will eventually move up to a newer 4 wheel drive in years to come but at the cost of the old farm tractors and their dependability I doubt they will ever have to spend the money needed to buy a big 4 wheel drive that will handle the batwings and those low cost 2 wheel drive units will probably still be running when the smaller machines with 4 wheel drive they buy to do the snow plowing have faded into dust.

When I decided to build here I could not afford to take my big machines out of use and bring them home as needed to do all the jobs at hand so I settled for a smaller than needed 4x thinking the same as many here seem to think. Boy was I wrong! A waste of money and a waste of a machine as it has slowly got beaten to death trying to accomplish what would have been easy work for a machine 2 times it size with only 2 wheel drive and it would have cost less than half what the smaller 4 wheel drive machine cost. Yes I would have had to make other choices and left some tasks on the table for now when I finally retired some of my 2 wheel drive machines and brought them home but in the end the money saved and timing would have worked out better as some of those jobs just proved too much for the smaller machine.

Its never an easy choice deciding on your wants/needs when your budget is a concern so I wish the poster well and hope he finds a way to get something that will work out best for him in the long term!

 

[jenkinsph]

paulfun9,

I understand your analogy, I have done a lot with two wheel drive tractors, long ago we were glad to have a tractor period. But, when offering advice it is better to offer or suggest what you feel is optimum. While you do have an upcharge for mfwd it isn't so much to be a deal breaker in most cases. I do understand that a 4x2 tractor is capable of lots of work, I know because for years that is all we had and I am glad we had them too.

 

[GManBart]

Are you serious? The hole darn machine is a luxury and every option on it as well!

I have lived and operated with 2 wheel drive for the majority of my life and we always managed to get the job done. To this day my 2 wheel drive machines out number my 4 wheel drive machines and I still use a 2 wheel drive machine for many jobs both summer and winter.

Yes I agree that 4 wheel drive makes many things easy but when budget constraints limit your needs/wants you have to make choices such as do I want to spend all day working that field or would it be more feasible to have a machine with 2 wheel drive and a 15 foot batwing and have to spend a little time prepping it for winter plow duties? ( which for me only means the installation of tire chains and some extra ballast). Yes that's right folks many of the jobs folks are describing have been done over and over again with the common sense approach successfully with 2 wheel drive for a long time. Some of those jobs have needed the help of a neighbors tractor to speed the process up but they still got done without resorting to using the wheelbarrow.

I wish we had all the digital camera stuff now back when, so I could post pictures of all the jobs that have been accomplished with 2 wheel drive! I assure the poster that the rock in the pics posted here is nothing compared to some we have dug out with 2 wheel drive and we didn't always have the luxury of just putting it back in the ground deeper. They came out and got hauled away with trucks that today you would wonder how they could even haul the groceries home from the store much less a weight that would make you cringe as they loaded into todays big trucks!

We recently sub divided a large part of our property and sold it to family members who wanted to move back home from the city. For some of them I actually recommended they purchase 2 wheel drive tractors to maintain their property as with the common sense approach they will be able to get most jobs done with no problems and very little frustration with others. For two of them I recommended they purchase 4 wheel drive and split the cost on a dozer or tracked loader with some real weight because their properties will require it. Now the two properties with 2 wheel drive are not flat and they will have to use a better strategy when doing some jobs but their pockets just simply could not afford a machine big enough to do their primary tasks without self destructing over time that also had 4 wheel drive. SO their budget prevailed and they now have well used 2x machines with all the gear they need to get the jobs at hand done without breaking the bank. Yes I am sure they will eventually move up to a newer 4 wheel drive in years to come but at the cost of the old farm tractors and their dependability I doubt they will ever have to spend the money needed to buy a big 4 wheel drive that will handle the batwings and those low cost 2 wheel drive units will probably still be running when the smaller machines with 4 wheel drive they buy to do the snow plowing have faded into dust.

When I decided to build here I could not afford to take my big machines out of use and bring them home as needed to do all the jobs at hand so I settled for a smaller than needed 4x thinking the same as many here seem to think. Boy was I wrong! A waste of money and a waste of a machine as it has slowly got beaten to death trying to accomplish what would have been easy work for a machine 2 times it size with only 2 wheel drive and it would have cost less than half what the smaller 4 wheel drive machine cost. Yes I would have had to make other choices and left some tasks on the table for now when I finally retired some of my 2 wheel drive machines and brought them home but in the end the money saved and timing would have worked out better as some of those jobs just proved too much for the smaller machine.

Its never an easy choice deciding on your wants/needs when your budget is a concern so I wish the poster well and hope he finds a way to get something that will work out best for him in the long term!

Yes, I'm serious. This isn't the 1920s and we have to move on and accept that most people consider many things "standard" or "normal" that used to be "luxury" items. A 4wd tractor isn't a luxury machine, it's a better machine. The way you guys talk, it's like you're saying buying a 4wd tractor is the same as buying a Mercedes instead of a Chevy....simply not the case.

Yes, 4wd is going to cost more, and no it's not the answer to every problem, but it will allow people to do more work with a smaller machine that they can afford to buy, have a place to store, and won't be vastly oversized for normal tasks.

Nearly your entire post is about you, and your uses over time, which is great, but it's not the OP. If you read his comments carefully, you'd note that he's never owned a 4WD tractor before, or used an FEL, and isn't confident he can pick a good used tractor. That rules out your concept of buying a 2wd machine that's 2X or 3X bigger because any of those would have to be used.

Also, don't forget that you have multiple machines, and have used them for years. You are less likely to get a machine stuck because of your experience, but if you do, it sounds like you would be able to get one of your other machines to pull it free. That isn't the case for most homeowners with some acreage.

 

[paulfun9]

Yes, I'm serious. This isn't the 1920s and we have to move on and accept that most people consider many things "standard" or "normal" that used to be "luxury" items. A 4wd tractor isn't a luxury machine, it's a better machine. The way you guys talk, it's like you're saying buying a 4wd tractor is the same as buying a Mercedes instead of a Chevy....simply not the case.

Yes, 4wd is going to cost more, and no it's not the answer to every problem, but it will allow people to do more work with a smaller machine that they can afford to buy, have a place to store, and won't be vastly oversized for normal tasks.

Nearly your entire post is about you, and your uses over time, which is great, but it's not the OP. If you read his comments carefully, you'd note that he's never owned a tractor before, and isn't confident he can pick a good used tractor. That rules out your concept of buying a 2wd machine that's 2X or 3X bigger because any of those would have to be used.

Also, don't forget that you have multiple machines, and have used them for years. You are less likely to get a machine stuck because of your experience, but if you do, it sounds like you would be able to get one of your other machines to pull it free. That isn't the case for most homeowners with some acreage.

Anything besides a pick, shovel, and wheelbarrow is a luxury! Just because we have more choices it does not change that fact!

Secondly posting here is about our experience in hopes that someone can take your advice and mine and combine it to get a solution that is best for them!

Yes I read the original post and still feel that if they apply common sense to their approach they could go in any direction they want! My cousin who purchased one of the properties had no confidence in his ability to get a good used machine but he used common sense and asked both myself and my neighbor to help him look at some used machines. Are you telling me that the original poster could not try to do the same if decided to take a different approach to his problem. Also I could have saved a bunch of money and purchased a much bigger 2 wheel drive machine when I built this house and still had a useable machine right now rather than a worn out piece of crap with 4 wheel drive!

Yes my post was about me but it is clear and to the point letting him know there are other options and that his needs can be accomplished with a 2 wheel drive machine if he chooses to go that route!

 

[GManBart]

Anything besides a pick, shovel, and wheelbarrow is a luxury! Just because we have more choices it does not change that fact!

Yes I read the original post and still feel that if they apply common sense to their approach they could go in any direction they want! My cousin who purchased one of the properties had no confidence in his ability to get a good used machine but he used common sense and asked both myself and my neighbor to help him look at some used machines. Are you telling me that the original poster could not try to do the same if decided to take a different approach to his problem. Also I could have saved a bunch of money and purchased a much bigger 2 wheel drive machine when I built this house and still had a useable machine right now rather than a worn out piece of crap with 4 wheel drive!

Yes my post was about me but it is clear and to the point letting him know there are other options and that his needs can be accomplished with a 2 wheel drive machine if he chooses to go that route!

In fact, a pick and shovel are luxury items because you can use your hands. Taking it to that level does nothing to help the discussion because it's unrealistic.

I'm not the OP, and I'm not putting words in his mouth. He says he's not confident in buying a used machine, so we'll have to take his word for it. Maybe he doesn't have any neighbors or relatives who can help, or maybe he wants something new with a warranty just in case....I don't know, but all we can go on is what he said.

You're guessing about his needs and whether a 2wd machine will accomplish them under reasonable circumstances given the size/price machines he's talking about. The option to go with a much larger 2wd machine isn't on the table unless he changes his position significantly.

It boils down to 4wd machines, or a 2wd machine that's just a bit larger....that's based on the OP's comments, not anybody's opinion. In that scenario, there is no comparison which one would be better for the OP...something with 4wd.

 

[TSO]

I can drive my F450 all over the place in 2wd as long as it's dry and moderate terrain. Add mud, snow, etc ... And it's USELESS without 4wd. It's not Luxury, it's a requirement. I could spend the better part of an hour providing specific references to the instances that has applied to my tractor as well. But I won't. The simple fact is, there are some applications where four wheel drive is not optional to get the job done in a reasonable amount of time... In many cases, it is simply required. Don't know why anyone would bother trying to argue against that.

 

[jenkinsph]

TSO,
I would also add that the heavy traction tire option makes a huge difference in my 4x4 F550s' too. With the regular all terrain tires and 95 psi all you have to do is spit in front of it to stop it in 4x2.

 

[TSO]

TSO,
I would also add that the heavy traction tire option makes a huge difference in my 4x4 F550s' too. With the regular all terrain tires and 95 psi all you have to do is spit in front of it to stop it in 4x2.

Lol exactly. Just like the R1 vs R4 tire comparison, I'm sure that my load range G 110 PSI "highway all season" tires aren't helping.

 

[TJP89]

Kioti is mostly considered a economy brand. To the best of my knowledge, Kioti does not make a tractor without 4WD. If an economy brand tractor maker has 4WD on every tractor it makes, then I'm thinking 4WD is now considered a basic tractor feature.

I have an 1950s farm tractor. I'd fail if I tried to make it my main farm tractor for a full sized farm. Yet it did such things once. Times have changed. I can do most everything on my property with a push mower and shovel, but my time is more valuable than that. As TSO said, this ain't the 1920s.

 

[grm61]

Kioti is mostly considered a economy brand. To the best of my knowledge, Kioti does not make a tractor without 4WD. If an economy brand tractor maker has 4WD on every tractor it makes, then I'm thinking 4WD is now considered a basic tractor feature..

I Don't think Kioti would be considered a economy brand any more than Kubota would be.

 

[oldpilgrim]

if they are not JD, then they are an economy brand. Just look at the prices.