Help getting land ready for Garage

[pccarroll]

Hello,
Although this is one of my most visited sites, this is my first post here. I really enjoy seeing the projects that you all bravely begin and complete. Hopefully someone can help me in my pursuit to build my garage.

First off, I can't decide what I want. I have received quotes for a 30'X40' pole barn as well as a 24'X30' garage. This is not the problem though. The problem is that I don't know how to go about preparing the land.

The land is on a slight slope that levels out below where I want the garage. The builder told me that I had two options. I could either "dig in" or "build up". I didn't like the idea of digging in due to moisture and water. Although, I don't like the idea of building up due to my lack of knowledge on how or what to build up with.

I have thought about just bringing in many loads of chert and begin leveling out the slope in about a 40'X50' area to prepare for the 30'X40' garage.

Is this right or am I looking at this wrong. I would like any information on this that you could give. I have been putting off building this for a year now due to the fear of beginning. I really want my garage and I feel that I may as well get the ball rolling.

If a picture of the land would help you provide answers, just let me know and I will post a picture.

Thanks a bunch,
pccarroll

 

[BB_TX]

I would prefer the build-up rather than the dig-in. That is what I did for my 30'x40' metal building. Actually I didn't do it. My neighbor had a lot of fill he wanted to get rid of. I needed it so he had the trucker move it over to my place and dump it. He was also having some dozer work done, so he had the operator come over and level it. Made my work easy /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but only a little seat time for final grading. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Dig-in- I would dig well in excess of what I needed, put in a retaining wall, and grade the drainage away from the area of the foundation.

 

[Soundguy]

Make sure you compact in lifts ( on the fill ).. especially if you pour a slab..

Soundguy

 

[pccarroll]

BB TX - What do you mean when you say "fill". Do you mean just dirt or chert or rock?

Soundguy - What exactely do you mean by "compact in lifts"?
I do plan on pouring a slab and I do realize that the foundation needs to be packed but what is the best way to let that happen. I would guess that just letting it set a few months would suffice. The rain should pack it pretty good. Am I wrong?

The slope that this land is at is not major at all. In fact, it is near level at the spot where I have finally decided to put the garage. Just how level does it have to be for them to put me a garage there? I would think that the slab could make up the difference in a slight slope.

I have attached a picture, in it you will see the arrow pointing down is showing where the garage is going. The arrow pointing up and right is the direction that the driveway to the garage is going to take. This is also the direction that the 40' will be. The 30' will be right to left when looking at the picture.
I realize that my drive will probably wash due to the slope but that is fixable. I just want the structure there now.

Thanks a lot for your replies.
pccarroll

 

[loner]

Bring fill up about 6"to 8" at a time watering and packing each lift.Use a car,truck,tractor to campact each lift. Dont hurry with lifts as your concrete will not crack later on. I would say that a foundation is the most important and the most overlooked or under appreciated portion of most buildings. A solid foundation is money in the bank!

 

[Soundguy]

Think of lifts as 'layers'.. and compact each accordingly. If you plan to merely let it set for a few months.. plan on having a sloped slab and an attractive art-deco style crack seperating the concrete over the stabilized 'in-place' earth and the fill area.

Running a tractor over it repeadetly will compact it. If it is a heavier tractor it will be better.

You can't get too much compaction.. And like loner pointed out.. that slab is the basis for the rest of the building.. you DON'T want PART of the slab at a different angle, as that will compromise the integrety of everything else..

Soundguy

 

[PineRidge]

Pccarroll we were faced with the very same decision when we built our pole barn several years back. We chose to "dig in" rather than "build up". The contractor explained to us that the foundation would be much more stable on established soil than on soil that he would need to move and compact. We are very happy for making the decision as we did as the pole barn hasn't moved an inch and the concrete floor is stable without cracking.

My suggestion is for "digging in" and getting the job done. Good luck to you on your project!

 

[pccarroll]

Thanks guys,
I agree that the foundation is one of the most important parts of a structure. That is why I am asking questions now instead of later. Thanks for the explanation on the layers. That makes 100% sense.

PineRidge, that option is starting to really look good to me. As you can see in the picture, there is not that much slope. As you said, it would be a very sturdy foundation not to mention save money and time. At first I like the idea of getting it up off the ground to keep any water or anything from harming it, but, after the garage is built and the slab is several inches thick, it should be resistant to water anyway. Right, maybe.

Can anyone think of any issues with taking PineRidges advice and digging in? PineRidge, was the slope you build on more or less than mine in that picture? What all was involved in the process?

Thank you all for the help, hopefully I will have this done by the end of the summer. I have put this off long enough.

pccarroll

 

[Henro]

Hi,

I don't have a dug in garage...but I do have a dug in house.

You land looks flat compared to ours here in Western PA. If you make the proper effort you will not have a water or even a moisture problem. You just have to do what is necessary to keep the moisture/water out. Before I corrected a road run off problem, I had four inches of standing water against the high side of my house in a heavy rain, and not a drop inside.

Now the low side of my house has the basement floor about a foot above the ground level. At the side in the hill the floor is about 7 feet or a bit more below grade.

If your low end is above grade, French drains at the footer level can carry water away easily.

Now I really did not want a water problem, so along with the french drains, I coated the block walls with a thin coat of mortor, and ued a 16 oz beer bottle to make a curved shape in the motor at the bottom of the wall where the wall meets the footer.

I then coated that mortor-covered block with plastic roof cement using a trowel to put about a quarter inch thick coat top to bottom, actually probably bottom to top...can't remember...it has been 20 years now.

I then took plastic sheeting and stuck it against the roof cement and it sort of bonded to it. ON top of that I took the liquid roof coating and painted over the plastic. Then I got rigid insulation (like the better grade styrofoam) and put it agains the wall to protect the tar covered plastic.

Finally I back filled with river gravel. So any water would tend to find its way down to the french drain and not sit there waiting to somehow push through the wall.

I've seen water pouring out of the french drains after a rain, but never a hit of moisture on the inside. Also, I don't have rain gutters on my house, I just let the water fall off the roof...

Myself, I would dig in, but try to keep the low end a little above the existing grade so whatever water may find its way in would easily drain out the end of the french drains.

I know it may sould a little crazy when you read my methods. I built my own place and decided to do my best to do it right the first time...guess I was smart enough to know there would not be a second time for me! House building on your own with little help is fun but tiring. Only one house in this body... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[em14]

Hi,
You will need to get the grass, any other vegetation and the top soil off the areas there you are going to build. The footers for the foundation will need to be placed on undisturbed earth. I’m sure that is code there. Clearing the grass etc., is done to get the concrete pad on as solid ground as possible and since the vegetation will decompose, voids would appear and will cause strength and cracking problems for the pad. I have not heard the use of “many loads of chert” since I was working in Memphis in the early 70’s. That is great stuff. We spec’d it for several jobs and it worked great. Compacted great!
Good luck on your project … you have received some very good advice from the TBN folks.
Leo

 

[crb478]

From your picture I would dig in, it will be the cheapest and the most stable. If you are concerned about water you can make a shallow trench around the high end and the sides to keep the water going in a direction that you want or add a french drain to that. I personally try not to build pole barns as the bottoms will eventually rot, probably not in your lifetime, but I like to build to at least 200 years life expectancy. The wider your roof overhangs the better for keeping water away from your walls and footings.

 

[PineRidge]

Pccarroll your grade really doesn't look as bad as mine did. I ended up with the ground about 3 to 4 foot high in the back of the pole barn but it has caused no problem for me since I dug a drainage ditch and filled it with large stone to divert the water away from the pole barn. It works since the floor is bone dry even in a hard downpour.

The contractor came in with a BobCat and moved all the dirt in a matter of about an hour and a half to level the pad location. I had him clear an extra 3 foot on all sides of the barn. I'm now enlarging the side cleared area to accommodate parking a car or trailer on each side.

If you are concerned about water problems maybe you can use a few of Henro's ideas. It's amazing what some guys can do with an idea and an empty beer bottle and Henro had 2 empty bottles, one for each of the two beers that he is holding in his picture. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[JimR]

From what your picture looks like, I would dig in. Use the fill from the foundation to raise the floor height and level off that area. There may even be enough to bank the sides a little with the leftover. If not, bring in a little more fill.

 

[EddieWalker]

I would hire somebody who's been around your area for awhile and knows the ground. From your picture it looks like a little cutting from the high side could be used to fill on the low side. Depending on the type of soil you have, compaction can be easily obtained with a dozer, or you might need a compactor.

Just hoping that rain and time will do the job isn't going to work.

Hoping to get it close and filling in the difference with concrete is just throwing money away. A 30 by 40 pad 4 inches thick is going to take 15 yards. Thats without any footings around the edges to support the walls. How deep does your footing have to go? Concrete runs about $65 a yard in East Texas.

I'd guess your minimum expense for just concrete and rebar is going to be around $1,200, and if you want to fill in the slope double that number and be ready go even higher.

A competent crew will cut your pad, slope the surrounding ground for run off in a day. They will have a lazer level, several tractors and when the day is done, your pad will be perfect.

You're also going to need a crew to pour the concrete. Don't try this on your own without experience and lots of good friends.

Pay for these two things, and the rest is fairly simple. Screw up the pad and slab and you have a night mare!

The french drains are a necessary evil. If you don't absolutley have to have one, DONT! From your picture, your land has a nice gentle slope that is perfect for building on.

Good Luck
Eddie

 

[Nasty135]

pccarroll, Something I would also use to help make my decision is grade of garage to grade of drive? If grade of driveway is higher in elevation to garage you may get run-off in garage,in which case I would build-up. Unless you put a culvert drain across the entrance to the garage. If the run-off will not be a factor (hard to tell from a picture)then I'm for the virgin ground method..Oh the excitement of construction! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Mark S.

 

[Soundguy]

If you cut it in.. just contour the existing land around it so that you don't get standing water. Looks real flat there.. so shouldn't be a problem.

Soundguy

 

[BB_TX]

The "fill" was from my neighbor digging a pond. It was a mixture of dirt from various depths.
Not sure how you do slabs in TN. Here we cannot do a basic flat slab because of the contracting and expanding of the soil as the moisture content changes. If they are any size at all, they are poured with perimeter beams and, if large enough, additional beams criss-crossing the slab thru the center. Mine has extra deep beams with 6 (or was it 8?) runs of 1/2" rebar in each. After 4 years, there are only a very few spider web cracks, none of which show any signs of opening up.

 

[pccarroll]

Wow,
Thanks guys. You all seem very sharp about this kind of stuff. You all have made me feel a lot more comfortable with beginning this project. Like I stated before, I had a slight fear of even beginning this, but you all have eased a little of the fear.

I think that I am going to do like you all suggested and cut into the slope a little bit. Once the garage is there, if there is any water problems, they can all be fixed with a little backhoe work. I like the thought of putting the slab on undisturbed soil a lot better that having to bring in fill and pack. I know that in the end, both are great but I am looking for the easiest/fastest route possible.

I think my next step is to start hunting for a crew to tackle the job. I have priced a few builders, and man things are high. The ones that have quoted me prices are big time commercial dealers. That is probably why the price is so high. I am about to start looking for local builders in the area, maybe even the Amish.

I had planned for this to be my spring project but plans changed this weekend per the Wife. Now it looks like my garage will be more of a fall project since our deck got moved up to the top of the list.

Thanks again for all of the help and If I ever see any questions on here that I may lend some advice on I will definetly try my best to help.

Thanks