Heat and Air ?

Bird · Jun 10, 2006

( Most heatpumps use electric resistance heaters as the backup but I wanted warmer air )

We have a 1999 Rheem "High Efficiency" heat pump with the electric backup (total electric house; no gas lines in this neighborhood) and while the heat pump usually keeps it warm enough, if you kick in that electric heater, you sure wouldn't want any warmer air; it gets really hot. I think the manual calls it a 13.65 SEER.

Bird · Jun 10, 2006

( Most heatpumps use electric resistance heaters as the backup but I wanted warmer air )

We have a 1999 Rheem "High Efficiency" heat pump with the electric backup (total electric house; no gas lines in this neighborhood) and while the heat pump usually keeps it warm enough, if you kick in that electric heater, you sure wouldn't want any warmer air; it gets really hot. I think the manual calls it a 13.65 SEER.

Sigarms · Jun 11, 2006

Re: Heat and Air ? *DELETED* *DELETED*

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Sigarms · Jun 11, 2006

Re: Heat and Air ? *DELETED* *DELETED*

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Bird · Jun 11, 2006

I'm curious about the "programmable thermostats" and how they can save you any money. We have a Robertshaw 9620 digital programmable thermostat. I've read the manual, looks like you can do lots of interesting things with it, but we don't. We have it on manual, one setting, and will probably not touch it until it's time to switch from cooling to heating. I suppose if we both worked and were gone during the day, it might save some money by changing the setting, but since we're retired, here most of the time, or in and out, I don't understand how it can be of any help to us. Am I missing something?

Bird · Jun 11, 2006

I'm curious about the "programmable thermostats" and how they can save you any money. We have a Robertshaw 9620 digital programmable thermostat. I've read the manual, looks like you can do lots of interesting things with it, but we don't. We have it on manual, one setting, and will probably not touch it until it's time to switch from cooling to heating. I suppose if we both worked and were gone during the day, it might save some money by changing the setting, but since we're retired, here most of the time, or in and out, I don't understand how it can be of any help to us. Am I missing something?

Sigarms · Jun 11, 2006

No, you're not missing anything /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But, different "applications, different systems", yes, they can save you money.

Volfandt · Jun 11, 2006

I use the programmable T-stat to maintain separate temps at 4 diferent times of the day in hopes of saving $$$'s. To meet this end I only deviate the temps by 2 degrees max.

In the winter, Monday - Friday the T-stat will gradually start to raise the temp to 70 degrees at 6am and maintain it until 8am at which point it drops back down to 68. It stays at 68 until it starts to gradually raise the temp back up to 70 at 5pm. It remains at 70 until 11pm when it again will drop back down to 68 and stay there until 6am the next morning. Believe it or not, we can feel the diffenrence of just those 2 degrees!
For Saturday & Sunday it rasies to 70 at 6am and stays there until 11pm where it drops to 68 and stays there until 6am the next morning.
The T-stat is an automatic changeover model so we don't have to worry about switching between heat and cooling. I also don't have to make any changes to the T-stat when its in AC mode. Basically, it maintains 72 degrees 24/7 which we find comfortable during the summer.

The T-stat also has a built in and programmable change the filter warning. Mine is set to every 3 months but it's adjustable. Every 3 months a message appears in the T-stats display to change the filter. Once I do I just hit the filter reset button and it clears and resets the timer.

It can be over-ridden at anytime and it will revert to the programmed setting at the set times. If the need arrises to keep the over-ridden temp set past the changeover times then theres a lock button also. When locked the settings won't change until it's unlocked. It can be locked forever I rekon....

Being raised in a home that had a coal furnace w/a stocker that needed attantion every night, i.e. the stoker needed filled and the clinkers cleaned out of the furnace. I almost feel guilty in what I don't have to do to remain comfortable in my home.

I do a type of manual zone control that I'm thinking of automating one of these days. My basement stays much cooler that the rest of the house year round so I manually close all the registers when cooling and open them up when heating.

I also augment my cooling system with a few ceiling fans. This helps to keep 72 livable.

I do like the dual fuel system but it seems that natural gas has risen evey year since I decided to go that route. I'd say when my furnace is running that its costing about the same as those electric resistance heaters cost when they were running in the older system.

Volfandt

Bird · Jun 11, 2006

( we can feel the diffenrence of just those 2 degrees! )

Yep, we sure can. More so, I think, as we've gotten older. Our thermostat is set for 78, and shows to be 78, but actually with a good thermometer, the real temperature in the whole house is 71 plus or minus one. We do have to flip the switch between "heat" and "cool" in the Spring and Fall. So we never change the thermostat. But we have a ceiling fan in the master bedroom and one in the living room and I have a 16" fan on a stand right behind me here at the computer. And the air handler has a monstrous "accordion" type filter that the guy who checked out the system before we bought the place says normally only needs changing about once a year; twice a year in some cases. And since the air handler is in the attic, I go up there and pour about a half to a cup of bleach in the condensation drain once a month.

OKnewguy · Jun 11, 2006

I had another person check out the system, he is going to get me my first quote. He recomended staying with 15 seer and lower. I should get a qoute Tuesday. He is a neigbor down the street who is retired and now does this on the side. The cool thing is he is going to give me a quote for 13 seer heat/air, 15 seer heat/air, and then 13/15 with just air for now. He also is going to price the quotes with me helping him out or helper. So I am curious to see how it pans out.
I love the programable thermostats. I will say that our system is maybe slightly large for the house 3.5 ton on a 2000' house, and it would not run long to make up the temp change. It really works well in the winter, I like it cold at night, and then when you wake up it kicks on a half hour before you wake up and takes the edge off when your blood starts flowing.
Thanks Guys, Dave

Piedmont3 · Jun 12, 2006

OKNewGuy,
I live in Piedmont. Same temperature range as you about 12 or 15 miles west of you. we had a new heat and air system installed in our first house, the original was undersized and died about a month after we moved in, it was replaced with a heat pump with gas heat backup. In our new house we had a geothermal unit put in when we built it. Both done by the same HVAC company You might call them for a qoute. They are very good to deal with, and very competitive on price. "Hunter Mechanical and Controls" They are on north Santa Fe next to the Broadway Extension. I don't have any interest in the company other than to provide a good reference to someone who has done very good work for me in the past.

dmccarty · Jun 12, 2006

Dave,

See if the contractor's will do an energy analysis on the house so you can size the needs of the system. Sometimes the analysis is along the lines of every 500 sf of house requires 1 ton of heat pump. That may or may not be true.

Hopefully are resident HVAC guys can talk about getting the right number of tons in the house.

You want to size that heat pump so its not too big. Too Big is bad. It wastes money to buy and run as well as likely keeping you uncomfortable. The heat pump spends the most dollar when it starts up. You don't want the thing starting and stopping frequently.

Those AL windows have GOT to go when you get the money to replace them. We had AL windows in our last house. You froze in the winter and roasted in the summer next to those windows. I made some inserts to put in the windows to cut down on the energy loss but it barlely helped. Our new house has AL wood clad casement windows. You don't feel ANY energy transfer from outside to inside. Windows really impact the comfortable level of a house.

There are a number of free energy usage programs. I have used one called RESFEN. You have to know the efficency numbers or lack there off from for you windows. You can make guesses. I used the program to figure out which windows made the most economic sense base on the cost of the windows and how energy effiecient they where for our house.

The program says our cooling costs is about $96 a year. Right now are base energy usage, all electric is about around $85-95 per month. That is no HVAC usage. When we turn the AC on in another few weeks our energy bill will go up to $125-135 a month. So for three months we do spend about $30 a month to cool the house. The program seems to be accurate.

This is going to differ on how people set the thermastat. Right now our high temps have hit 87ish. Our house might hit 82. This week we will have highs in the lower 80s so the house will stay in the upper 70s. I designed the house to TRY to do this and it seems to work. The AC has not been on yet and I don't think will have to be turned on for another couple of weeks. If I'm lucky. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Well, that is a long example on how RESFEN could help you pick the HVAC system. The program should get you in the ball park energy usage/price wise and you can compare that number with the different SEER values and costs.

Later,
Dan

OKnewguy · Jun 12, 2006

Hi Piedmont, I am down off Covel and Bryant. I live in a great neighborhood with 5 acre lots, but it is about 2 miles to Target and Lowes. Anyway, I am glad you had good luck with Hunter, it just so happens that they were the guys to diagnose the system. I have used them at past houses and was always very pleased, but this time they have left a bad taste in my mouth. My guy down the street, got me some quotes today, and they are not as bad as I thought they might be. To replace the outdoor unit is $1625(13 seer), to replace everything with ng furnace,inside coil and outside unit (13) is $3500 and to go to 15 seer and a complete new system everywhere is $5600. I do not have all of the model info yet, this was just a quick conversation over the phone. The units would all be American Standard all 3 ton and this is with me being the helper. The warranties are 6 years on the partial and 10 years on the complete new system. Hunter is getting me a quote, and I will use that as a gage.
I am definetly planning to upgrade my windows, and increase my attic insulation. I had checked into geo a couple of years ago, and it sounded like the ducting would not be adequate. If I was building new, I really would think about it thou. BTW, the house has stayed cooler since I got the roof ventilator working.
Any thoughts on the 13 to 15 cost difference, and how long it might take to pay out?
Thanks so much for all of the info!!
Dave

flwiii · Jun 12, 2006

I am glad I don't live in OK. Couldn't stand that much variation on the temps (0 - 100+). Can't say much about heat as I never use a heater here. No need for such a thing. I do have a new heat pump that was just installed last year. The original AC unit on this house when it was purchased was a RUDD (stay away from them).

After some serious discussion with a friend in the AC industry, I chose American Standard/Trane. I liked the dual compressor setup they have. One is smaller than the other. The small one kicks in and out to maintain the temp. If the small compressor can't keep up, the second one kicks in.

It has cut my cooling cost almost in half and I can maintain a lower temp in the house (72 degrees).

Sigarms · Jun 12, 2006

I'm curious as how the laws are interpreted in your state.

You mentioned the house was built some time ago, with what I assume is the orignal HVAC system.

"Retrofit" systems now must meet 13 SEER minimum requirements. Assuming that on the one quote that they are only changing the OUTDOOR unit, I can't see how with the existing indoor coil they will meet 13 SEER (no way in **** more like it) with only the outdoor unit (being ARI matchup). You may also have issues going to a "new" outdoor unit with an older coil.

In laymens terms, if you only change the outdoor unit (with the older coil still in place), you may actually only get a 10 SEER rating if your lucky.

Not to mention what metering device is required with the condensing unit.

I'm sure this gentleman explained this to you.

The $3500 quote sounds VERY resonable for the complete changeout (including furnace).

It would be impossible for a company that pays insurance, wages, taxes, overhead, "stands behing thier work"...to meet that price for doing a COMPLETE job.

Keep in mind, it is VERY easy for someone "part time" to give you a GOOd price, it is somthing else trying to get that same person to do service work when you need it the most (particulalry when it's 100F and your A/C isn't working or 20F and your funace isn't working).

OKnewguy · Jun 13, 2006

Thanks again for the feedback. We do have some crazy temperature shifts here, the worst is out in the panhandle (far NW) it can be very very cold in the winter and 110 or more in the summer. I don't know how people do it. Yes, when I had talked to the local guy he did inform me about the cons of just upgrading the outside unit, and I had read about that on the internet also. I am leaning toward the 13 sytem (everythig). I am just waiting for Hunter now. I believe that the savings over the 15 seer would be better spent in new insulation in the attic and other efficiency things.
Thanks again everyone!
Stay Cool /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, Dave

Sigarms · Jun 13, 2006

( Yes, when I had talked to the local guy he did inform me about the cons of just upgrading the outside unit, and I had )

Considering the fact that this "guy"" actually realizes the cons of using the old coil, but still leaves it as an option to "leave it in place", good luck, you may need it.

Angone I know worth doing business with who wants to make sure they have a satisfied customer would rather walk away from a sale than "make a sale" and have a serious potential problem down the road that they (the installer) knew might happen if they did work and "took the easy way out".

I also hope this guy told you that if you use the old coil and they are not "rated" together, you VOIDED (and I'm very familiar with American Standard, my guess is that it is thier "Heritage" series he's selling you) any warranty (sp?) that you may of had with the new condensing unit.

Just make sure you know of all the cons.

kenmac · Jun 14, 2006

.

 The $3500 quote sounds VERY resonable for the complete changeout (including furnace). 

I was installing goodman & armstrong 10 seer complete swap outs for about that price 2 yrs ago

)

OKnewguy · Jun 18, 2006

Got everything in, I have been checking the forum and trying to figure it out. Air is a GOOD thing. Unit runs great, we just got the electric bill for last month, and it is 2 what it usually is for May! I did not realize it had got so bad.
Thanks for all the help, Dave

Jagmandave · Jun 20, 2006

When they replaced my old A/C unit, they replaced the "A" coil along with the outside unit.........he also said the new one would not last nearly as long as my old one did, and I could easily see what he was talking about, the old one weighed twice as much as the new, and you could feel the difference (and see it when he cut the lines) in the old copper........

That said, it cost 1/2 as much to cool my house after we changed it out. at least till the electrical costs went up so much, now we're about back to square one...........

But the house is cool!

We get about the same temps/humidity here as they do in OK..........

Gotta have cool air in the summertime!