Haying Equipment needs 101

[Phred]

I have the 5400 rebel and about 70 hp gross.

On flat ground you can get by with the 5400 and that tractor.
I pull mine up and down, as well as across some steep ground and I would not want any smaller tractor.

I have been very pleased with this baler. It makes very good tight bales, and is easy to service.

Fred

 

[ddivinia]

What tractor are you using?

Thanks,
D.

 

[Banjo]

I've been following this thread since it's inception, and now that the cottage is about to sell, am close to being able to start getting set for haying myself.

I have about 40 pretty much flat acres to cut. I think it's been used for pasture only for about the last 10 years. I think I'm going to need about 1000 square bales to meet my projected feed requirements for the winter.

I have an Allis Chalmers D14 tractor, which is Engine (HP):43, Drawbar (HP): 24.5 PTO (HP): 32.62, according to tractordata.com. It has loaded tires and a loader.

I've arranged to buy a NH310 baler, and likely a MF25 (or similar) PTO powered rake.

I'm looking to get a 7' mower/conditioner to complete the "package". I'm considering a NH 477. Does someone know about the different NH 7' haybines? So far I found 472, 477, and 478 models as 7 footers. What are the differences between them? I was leaning towards the 7' model because of lower power requirements, and easier handling in some of the tighter spots on the fields.

I'd welcome any thoughts, opinions and suggestions.

thanks, Andrew

 

[MFMan]

Take a look at the Massey Ferguson 1457 on the attached link. It offers the 7' width you are looking for plus a patented cast stub on stub guard design that ensures cleans cuts and less plugging, even in tough conditions. It also has a unique rubber/steel conditioner roll design that crimps the crop rather than the "pass and mash" result found with intermeshing chevron rolls. Remember that not all parts of the plant dry at the same rate - leaves dry faster than the stem, so there is no need to mash the entire plant and suffer high leaf loss (if you are in clover, alfalfa, etc.)

http://www.masseyferguson.com/agco/MF/NA/HayForage/1400SMC.htm

 

[jimg]

This sure is an interesting topic and lots of good info.

It seems though that equipment type would depend somewhat on climate. That is, in the arid west w/ warm/hot days, nearly no humidity and little or no rain tedding wouldnt be necessary. However, it would speed the drying process some. Whether its enough to justify an extra attachment + work Ill leave to someone else to answer. In the south and northeast tedding would seem to be a distinct advantage. Since the air already contains alot of moisture tedding would seem necessary for enough air space so evaporation (transpiration?) could take place plus getting it (as much as possible) up off the damp/moist ground. Additionally, the less than ideal weather (pop up thunderstorms, cool damp, etc) in both areas can making getting hay in a challenge. So, anything to the farmers advantage would be a good thing. The last thing you want is rain on nearly dry hay esp if its being sold. Im sure tedders cost money but a good used one couldnt be that expensive.

Just thinking aloud here...

For those who sell hay...when do you mow? Ive read reports (from university ag dept/ag extension) that indicate the amt of sugars in the plant is highest at days end which diminishes over night. The reasoning is if you mow during a time when the sugars are at their highest concentration the final product has a higher TDN. This assumes the plant is mowed at the proper maturity level and the haying process doesnt degrade the final product.

The tedder/rakes (those that are convertible) seem to me like a great deal. Its one less attachment to drag into the field and to hook/unhook. It also seems as though they would work pretty well. In the areas Ive lived no one has them. I assume thats what the NH 254 is?

 

[5030]

I don't post much anymore, just lurk, but, we are commercial forage growers as well as feed our horses and maintain our feed lot operation which averages around 500 head in containment at any particular time.

Like CowBoyDoc, I have my preferences and experiences. I've used many brands of hay tools but I prefer New Holland. for everything but rakes. I have a NH side delivery rake but it's just a yard ornament. I use a Kuhn Gyrorake. Actually we also have a Giehl rotary also.

Problem with a side delivery rake is that it tends to "rope" the windrow while a rotary fluffs the windrow and speeds drydown. Besides, a rotary has way fewer moving parts to wear or break and most rotaries can be used to ted with the guard in the up position.

We have 2 round bailers, both NH. We have a 638 with an acid applicator and a 786 computerized unit with net wrap. Both units have their uses and the 4 square bailer, the 638, runs bails that are easier to handle than it's big brother. The big bailer also bails constalks and wheat straw. The proprionic acid setup is nice for first cut or when the weather threatens as you can bail at 20% actual moisture without spoilage. We use NH buffered proprionic acid that is non corrosive and machine freindly.

We have 2 square bailers, both NH both are offset. The most important thing an ANY square bailer is the knotters. They have to be tight without any sideplay and the followers must be in good shape or they will mistie. Always, when purchasing a used square bailer, have a bailer mechanic who is familiar with the particular brand, look over the knotters before you buy. NEVER try to adjust the knotters yourself other than changing the twine cutters. Keep them well greased and free of chaff. There are add on knotter blowers available that keep the knotters free of chaff. I just use a big brush about every 100 bales or so and the machines (all of them) get greased every evening.

Our rotary rakes are all hydraulically lifted which makes turning a breeze. On first cut, my partner will follow behind me (by a couple of hours) with our model 35 IH steel wheeled crimper. The second crimp gives a faster drydown which is crucial in the moderate temps of early summer.

We also have a NH inverter, but you don't need that for small acerage.

We run to mowing machines, a JD MoCo with an SCH cutter bar. I recommend SCH bars. They are really trouble free and the sections (knives) can be changed individually. SCH is a premium cutterbar and the initial cost is more. SCH can be retrofitted or specified on any make of mower. I use the MoCo for 3rd and 4th cut as in my experience, it seems to do a better job with the "finer" preceeding cuts. It has chevron crimper rolls. We also have a NH center pivot rotary haybine for 1st and 2nd cuts. The rotary does a better job in the heavier cuts and won't clog like the sickle unit. It does take a pretty heavy PTO horsepower to drive though.

I have my hay certified by Litchfield Analytical Labs in Litchfield, Michigan. Litchfield provides mailers anywhere in the USA for return of samples to the lab. I use a cylindrical hay probe made from an old golf club for pulling samlpes. You can buy commercial probes, but the golf club is as good as any. We specify wet chemistry over dry UV because of the more accurate reports.

We also use a Delmhorst certified moisture tester with RB probes, SB probes and field sampling probes. Delmhorst is available from Seedboro Inc. Delmhorst is the recognized leader in sampling equipment.

Our rolling stock consists of about 12 Giehl tandem axle haywagons and a couple of goosneck trailers as well as all the help we can get for square bales. I pay $20.00 per hour for field help. Nobody works cheap anymore.

Our motive power consists of a Kubota 105SA, my 5030 HSTC an Kubota M9000HDcc3, a Massey 1085 and a few smaller units. All the field tractors have cabs and AC.

We run around 2000 rounds on first. Second and third and maybe forth are all squared. Last year we made in the excess of 7500 squares on 3 cuts. In addition, we run around 1000 rounds of wheat straw and around 500 rounds of cornstalks. The wheat and corn is used for feedlot bedding.

I like turnkey machinery and implements. The absolute worst case scenario is getting it cut, raked and windrowed and your bargain bailer won't bail. We have done custom bailing in those cases and I charge plenty for it.

As far as when to cut, well, every hay farmer I know of has a different opinion. We tend, weather permitting, to cut when we see about 10-15% blossom and we cut no lower than one inch above grade on 2nd, 3rd and especially 4th cut. If you cut too low and too late here in Michigan, your fields will suffer winter kill. First is taken low as possible to grade without damaging the cutters.

We fertilize after 1st., cut and after our last cut and spot spray the fields for weeds. We contract with a certified argonomist and he checks the soil and adjusts the mixture for optimum growth. Beware, fertilizer has tripled in the past year. We are averaging around $60.00 per acre per application as of present. We always scout our fields for pests such as potato leaf hoppers and aphids. If found, we have our problem field sprayed with the appropriate chemicals. Currently, we have upsized our operation to around 350 acres of black, fertile loam. I couldn't begin to set a figure on equipment, but suffice to say, Farm Credit loves us.

In closing, I have to say that my views and opinions are mine and reflect on no others. Haying is about 1/2 luck and 1/2 hard work and remember, you can't fool mother nature....she will always win and the rain will come when you don't want it.

There is nothing worse than watching your hard work turn to mulch in that nice summer downpour....knowing that you just have to bail it up to get it off the field.

As my signature says: "If haying was easy, everyone would do it" It isn't.

By the way, we were COMPLETELY sold out by February last year, excepting the hay for our own needs and no hay was sold until after December 31st.

I might add that we were the first to use a rotary rake around here and we, ourselves were skeptical, that is, until we used one. As far as I am concerned, a side delivery rake is a good yard ornamnet now.

 

[riptides]

Daryl,

Thanks for your informative and enlightening post. I enjoyed reading it.

I have realized this is a tough business to get into. At this moment my wife and I have debated about what to do with our property. I am still inclined to move towards getting equipment for our needs only. This would save me the time, finding others to keep the pastures under control and of course not have the constant worry of finding and paying for hay.
My wife may be coming around to getting more involved. She has enjoyed her tractor time and realizes that SHE can be a contributer to the efforts.
We are still looking for the basics and of course the bigger tractor. I hope to start purchases this fall with first use next year.

Thanks to all for the information.
-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[DLMaine01]

GREAT post and great information. Sounds like you have quite an operation going.
Thanks for taking the time to share your real world experiance.
Dave

 

[kensfarm]

"The big bailer also bails constalks and wheat straw. "

I know the cornstalks are bailed after harvest.. but have you ever bailed cornstalks w/ the ears attached.. like this year.. ears are small.. not filled out. Usually the farmer would chop it for silage.

"Always, when purchasing a used square bailer, have a bailer mechanic who is familiar with the particular brand, look over the knotters before you buy"

Or bring 4 bales of straw w/ you and have them run it through the baler!

"The wheat and corn is used for feedlot bedding."

I had some winter wheat(didn't harvest the grain) that I cut and round baled this spring.. even though I feed grain & hay.. the steers ate the wheat bales up like candy.

Thanks for the great info..

 

[5030]

Funny thing about that. Most of the corn stalks we round are seed corn stalks and the field corn, well, they aren't our fields, we buy a combined fields and bail them. Same applies to the wheat straw, that is, of course, the chopper has to be removed from the combine and a windrow tail has to be attached. We never bail anything from a rotary combine like an International. The chop way too fine.

I have an old spare NH model 67 Hayliner that is a rooling rustbucket but the knotters are tight and it bails just as good as a new bailer so long as you use 130 propolyne twine.

 

[Banjo]

Here's an (overdue) update on the current state of my haying operation.

First off, thanks to everyone for the great sharing of information and experience. Daryl... thanks so much for "un-lurking" ... I've read your post dozens of times.

About 2 weeks ago I put together my hay equipment to have at the ~40 acres or so of mixed grass hay I have.

First I got what I think is a servicable NH271 square baler ... used on the same farm since '70 or so.

Then added a NH477 7' Haybine, seems in good shape. Private sale from a hobby farmer hay guy who got a 9' in trade for hay.

Went with a NH254 rotary rake/tedder, bought from a farm equipment place.

With this equipment and my '58 AC D-14 tractor I cut, raked, and baled about 830 bales with no real issues. I suspect I made them a bit light at ~35# each. Probably cut something under 8 acres total.

Learnings:
The tractor seemed to have plenty of power and heft for all phases. It has loaded rear tires and a loader so probably weighs about 6000# all up. The hand clutch was very useful to be able to slow down when the mower or baler got loaded up. The foot clutch stops the PTO which is generally a pain.

I'm glad I went with the 7' Mower. A lot of the gates, etc. in my fields are kinda narrow so it got big in a hurry. The sickle drive bushing failed, have just put in a new one. I ended up cutting pretty slow as the grass is pretty long and tangled, this is the "first cut" probably for a while. Has been used for pasture for the past 10 years or so as far as I know. I raised the feet on the mower to leave a longer stubble which seemed to help too.

The 254 rake does a great job. Once I got it all adjusted it worked well. I generally raked 2 mower windrows into one to bale. Made big fluffy windrows, pretty much just like in the brochure! Some of my hay got rained on overnight, and the next day there was no problem picking it up again to dry. I'm very pleased that I decided to plunge to get this unit. I've never used a side delivery rake so can't really compare, but based on my experience so far I'm a big rotary proponent so far.

I think I'm settling on setting the mower to make wide "windrows", just narrowed in enough so that the tractor isn't driving on them on the next "lap". Then set up the rake so each wheel grabs a row and rakes them onto the stubble between the rows (combining two into one). This seems to move all the hay, has it spread out pretty much to dry, put flips it onto a "dry" spot.

Corners are still a challenge! Trying to find the best way for doing it for mowing (not too bad), but then keeping them clean while raking so that trying to catch the windrow with the baler is still a "work in progress" LOL.

The baler worked fine. It took about 3 bales to "get started", after that it didn't miss a tie. I think I need to give it a "tune up" as all the chain adjusters are at their max, and I think the knife needs sharpening/aligning. The hay stop (the little triangle flap in the top of the feed area) was broken when I got it. I welded up the hinge (still works) to get it going. I have a new one at the dealer I have to pick up. Likely don't really need it now! However, it looks like it want through the knife or plunger so hat can't have helped. It shook the tractor a bit, mainly while turning, but I think I had plenty of power. I was generally baling pretty slow as the windrows were pretty heavy in a lot of places. Mostly first gear hi range, some in second in the thinner spots.

I had underestimated the collecting the bales effort! I didn't have someone available to ride a wagon, and quite frankly just manoevering the baler to catch the windrows was enough work! Should mention that the AC doesn't have PS! I used my car trailer, an old pickup with a flat box, and a borrowed wagon to get a last load up before rain. The loading and unloading takes a lot of time! I'm considering getting a NH Stack Wagon, as this looks like a great solution for me. None of my fields are very far from the barns.

Subsequent to this we went looking at a used 20' elevator last weekend (so I could put some hay in the hayloft too) and ended up coming home with a IH674 tractor and a wagon too! Two tractors will help a lot during the "race" and the IH does have PS! If I mow with it, I'll have to narrow the windrows as the rear tires are considerably fatter.

The forecast is sunny again, so I'm going to cut again today. There might be thunderstorms tomorrow night, but if it gets wet I think I can fluff it up again without issues. I'd welcome experience on if this is "legit"? The grass is mixed, unfortuanatly I couldn't tell you the different kinds (yet) ... some timothy, bit of clover and some other grasses too. No alfalfa AFAIK.

I posted some pictures on MBN if you're interested. I don't seem to be able to point you at a specific post just a page of results so scroll down a bit at MBN Haying Pics for the "results" and Equipment
a page earlier in the same thread has the baler and mower pics.

Once again, thanks to everyone for all the help (both in this thread, and through PM's) that made the above possible.

If anyone has the stomach for it I have a few questions:

1. What's the "official" small square bale size and weight? If I manage to get to bale this next lot I think I'll go heavier (~45-50# maybe) for a ~38" +/- bale?

2. If rain is coming is it better to have it get wet in the bales, and stook them to dry (did that), or in a windrow and re-rake (did that too). It seemed to me that both methods worked. The stuff that avoided rain altogher was the easiest though /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

3. I'd welcome any opinions on the NH Stack Wagons too (although we can use the new topic that just started for that too).

Thanks again, I hope this helps someone else who's starting out. Happy to try to answer any questions.

cheers, Andrew

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Go to this site, it list a lot of the common grasses and legumes as well as a ton of pictures to help you learn and identify them.

Purdue Ag's site

As for bale size, that depends on your area. My customers would complain about my bales when they were 45-50 pounds and wanted them lighter. I asked how light and they said 30-35 pounds. Most of my customers are women and older people so I understand why they want lighter bales. Length, I want about 36" long or longer but with a light bale you have to keep the bales shorter for good tension. Short bales don't stack as well as a long bale.

 

[cowboydoc]

NEVER let your bales get rained on. Even though you think they are dry they never fully dry once they are baled. You run a significant risk for fire. That is the biggest scare for square bales.

If you are using the bales yourself then I would do 50-80lbs. All of ours are 80 lbs. Ones we do to sell are 35#. People really complain about heavier bales. We sell by the ton so it doesn't make any difference to us. '

What do you want to know about the hay wagons? Are you talking about the automatic ones that pick up the hay in the fields or the ones that run off of a chute on the baler?

 

[Shadow_River]

Banjo,

I like 70-80 lb bales for squares. If you are looking at bale wagons they have a hard time picking up small lightweight bales. The weight and tightness of the bale makes them pickup much easier. Regarding NH bale wagons, I much prefer the 2 wide models (1032 & 1036) more manuverable and much easier to back into tight spots. I have the 1036 model and my barn doors are a touch over 14 ft and it clears with room to spare.

As far as cutting the grass, I think I'd wait for a dry spell, if possible. Grass hay don't like rain. I almost think a light rainstorm 1/4 inch or so is harder on grass than it is on Alfalfa. And I agree with Cowboydoc about the hay getting rained on in the bale, it never really dries out that well.

Best of luck and keep us updated.

 

[Banjo]

Thanks for the info guys.

Your 80# bales ... are they the "small" square ones 14x18, or bigger 16x18 ones? What length? Just trying to get a feel for the density.

Good feedback on the bale wagons. It had seemed to me that the 3 wide ones are getting pretty big machines. Given the size of our operation, and the fact that all the fields are pretty close to the barns, the smaller capacity per trip shouldn't really be any issue. It's the OHIO (Only Handle It Once) thing that I'm looking for!

It would be nice to avoid rain, but seeing as I'm trying to do this so late, I'm kinda sure my 5 sunny days in a row chances are likely gone. Whatever I get is a bonus.

Thanks for the grass pics ... now I know I do have some orchard grass ... not sure of all the others ... have to study more.

Tuned up the haybine with 20 or so new teeth and a new sickle drive bushing. Towed it with the "new" IH674 and was cutting up a storm last night . The haybine was really cutting and *much* quieter, and the PS on the tractor made the corners a treat rather than a chore. Made a great end to what had been a lousy day (for other reasons).

Here's another quest for opinions ... for the fields that I don't get cut for hay (there will be some) what's the best thing to do? Just leave them, bush-hog the grass, ?? Seems to me that bush-hogging, but leaving a good stubble, should allow the grass to rot down better and will set things up to be cleaner for next year (when I'll be able to do the first cut when your "supposed" to do it .

cheers, Andrew

PS. One further balewagon question ... in the specs on the sodbuster site it seems to list a different bale length for the 16" vs 14" bales. Given that the bales are stacked across ways, I would have thought the length would be the same for both? I'm sure I'm missing something?

 

[jgh]

20050923

Banjo, keep a couple of things in mind (per what I have been told):

1- Fescue and orchard grass leaves look somewhat similar individually (though they lay differently in the field);

2- Some horse folks will not buy fescue hay due to perceived mold problems, which I am told are mainly relevant only to pregnant mares. So far I have not had questions on this from the couple of buyers I have sold to.

I cut about 10 acres today with my trusty 1411 discbine. If you are trying to "cut corners" efficiently, keep in mind you have to swing the mower around as hard and as sharply as the instructions will permit. The video with mine shows it being manhandled hard, so that is what I am doing which helps a lot on cutting those corners.

There is a certain excitement in turning my supersteer machine so hard it almost runs into the cutter before it swings out to line up on the grass. Whee! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Happy haying,

Jim

 

[Farmwithjunk]

</font><font color="blueclass=small">(

2- Some horse folks will not buy fescue hay due to perceived mold problems, which I am told are mainly relevant only to pregnant mares. So far I have not had questions on this from the couple of buyers I have sold to. )</font>

The problem with SOME varieties of fescue isn't mold, but that they contain ENDOPHITES, which effect the pregnant mares ability to deliver foal. There are several varieties of ENDOPHITE FREE fescue's on the market.

I just completed seeding several pastures, and a couple hayfields, using Endophite Free Fescue in the grass seed mix.

Some of the horse owners I sell hay to demand their hay be analyzed for nutritional content, and for the presence of endophites.

 

[cowboydoc]

It's not only horses but cows too that have reproductive problems. I would certainly let anyone know that you are selling endophyte fescue. A guy was sued not long ago because he knowingly sold endophyte fescue and caused some pretty serious reproductive problems for a herd of cattle. Just because your customers may not know you are still liable if a vet determines it was you that knowingly sold the hay.

If you're selling hay it's a VERY good idea to always have it analyzed. That way you can sell accordingly for the content of the hay you have and you are also protected should anyone come back on you.

 

[cowboydoc]

You can get heavier bales with the 14x18 ones. You just set the density on your baler and the length. As far as the correct length and setup it just depends on the stacker.

With regards to your grass that you don't get cut it's not going to make alot of difference. If you are planning on cutting next spring you aren't going to get alot of decay over the winter. What you'll find is the grass will come back slower in the spring. We've done it both ways and it doesn't seem to make alot of difference. Either way you're going to have alot of "trash" that first time you cut it.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I didn't make it clear in my last post, but I haven't sold ANY fescue hay to this point, and what I just planted is endophite free. I only sell what I don't need myself. (12 to 20 head of beef cows a year)

This year was MISERABLE haying here. Not sure I have enough for my needs, muchless to sell.

I hope the cows like the taste of snowballs /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif