Grid-tied solar

[Jim Nelson]

Why Tesla's battery for your home should terrify utilities | The Verge

This article is a pretty good overview of the situation. No pricing info there.

One or two 10 kwh batteries at reasonable prices would probably get me off the grid. I average ~15-20 kwh per day usage, some of that (oven, washer, dryer) is very flexible, some (water heater, AC) is flexible to a point.

I need a gas generator to back-up the grid as it is, so a generator can also backup a solar+battery system at no extra cost.

Pretty interesting,the thing that makes me a little dubious is the Solar City connection because what I've seen of them out here is they want complete control. Rather than you own your system they want to own it and sell power to you for a discount price which is 40% off the power company price. Now that I understand the connection between Tesla and Solar City it makes sense.I wish he would say to heck with this other stuff and concentrate on batteries but I sure understand the money angle of his operation. I'm sure glad I bought my own system and hopefully the battery thing will happen.

 

[dave1949]

Pretty interesting,the thing that makes me a little dubious is the Solar City connection because what I've seen of them out here is they want complete control. Rather than you own your system they want to own it and sell power to you for a discount price which is 40% off the power company price. Now that I understand the connection between Tesla and Solar City it makes sense.I wish he would say to heck with this other stuff and concentrate on batteries but I sure understand the money angle of his operation. I'm sure glad I bought my own system and hopefully the battery thing will happen.

I think the best return comes from owning your own, but it is expensive upfront to do that. Solar City using your roof--which is basically an empty solar pv platform going to waste--and you get a discount on your electric bill. That is better than no solar pv and requires no upfront investment or maintenance/failure risk.

How Much Do Solar Panels Cost? - Solar Energy Cost | SolarCity

$0 down solar lease

It's a simple idea that changed the rules of the game so that everyone could play. Instead of paying thousands to buy a solar power system, homeowners can lease a system for $0 down and pay as they go.

In other words, we can put solar panels on your home at no cost. You simply pay for the power they produce every month at a lower rate than you pay now. The benefits of solar leasing are huge.

No upfront cost–You’ll need a good roof, but you won't need a lot of money to start.

Lower monthly energy bills–A lower energy rate and no upfront cost means you start saving right away.

Locked-in low rates–Utility costs tend to rise every year, but we let you lock in low, predictable solar energy rates for years.

20-year protection plan–We take care of all system repairs and insurance at no added cost.



Solar City is getting the renewable energy credits plus selling excess generation to the utility. I don't think it works very well in a state like Maine where the utility only banks excess kwh's generated to your account against future use. Maine electric suppliers never pay out for solar production. I don't think Solar City does residential systems in Maine. They might do large projects where they register as a true grid supplier/generator.

 

[Jim Nelson]

One of our neighbors looked at it and would have done it but they told him he had to replace his roof first,which was true, and I respect them for that, but it was a deal breaker for him. They are doing very well out here understandably but it would scare me knowing the power of the utility companies. I guess they are as safe as I am in that regard but I feel better owning my own.

 

[dave1949]

One of our neighbors looked at it and would have done it but they told him he had to replace his roof first,which was true, and I respect them for that, but it was a deal breaker for him. They are doing very well out here understandably but it would scare me knowing the power of the utility companies. I guess they are as safe as I am in that regard but I feel better owning my own.

I have no idea if Solar City has 20 year contracts with the various utilities to back up their arrangements with homeowners, seems doubtful and that would be a major weakness of the situation. Plus I think it is open to possible changes by the States' PUC over time. Twenty years is a long time in regulatory terms.

Overall, you have a homeowner, the utility, the PUC regulators, now add in someone leasing your system to you with their own agenda. Seems like the homeowner is likely to be low man on the totem pole in all that.

Elon Musk is no dummy, I hope he can deliver on the batteries. My guess is that he is betting on a regulatory direction that works in his favor for the storage/battery market while improving the production efficiency of the batteries to lower the costs at the same time. You have to figure he is planning his chess moves 5-10 years out.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have no idea if Solar City has 20 year contracts with the various utilities to back up their arrangements with homeowners, seems doubtful and that would be a major weakness of the situation. Plus I think it is open to possible changes by the States' PUC over time. Twenty years is a long time in regulatory terms.

Overall, you have a homeowner, the utility, the PUC regulators, now add in someone leasing your system to you with their own agenda. Seems like the homeowner is likely to be low man on the totem pole in all that.

Elon Musk is no dummy, I hope he can deliver on the batteries. My guess is that he is betting on a regulatory direction that works in his favor for the storage/battery market while improving the production efficiency of the batteries to lower the costs at the same time. You have to figure he is planning his chess moves 5-10 years out.

For years the utility has been saying costs continue to increase because generating capacity is maxed...

Now, that Solar is making inroads the Utility is saying they need to be compensated for infrastructure... no matter which way the wind blows or the sunshines... the homeowner is always low man...

 

[dave1949]

For years the utility has been saying costs continue to increase because generating capacity is maxed...

Now, that Solar is making inroads the Utility is saying they need to be compensated for infrastructure... no matter which way the wind blows or the sunshines... the homeowner is always low man...

And that may be a powerful motivation for people to exit the grid if and when price and convenience parity is achieved.

Off-grid you have equipment manufacturers, retailers and servicers of such, the usual consumer protection laws, and yourself.

 

[ultrarunner]

There is also city mandates that a home be connected to all available in place utilities as a condition of certificate of occupancy...

It can be very hard being an early adopter...

One of my friends is mostly off grid... they have a well and city water at only one of 3 adjoining properties occupied by family... water district wanted 25k hook-up for each home so they basically all use well water and have one water meter between them for backup...

I can see the same thing happening with solar... when you think about it... one 20 amp circuit can power the essentials of most homes... especially with LED lighting...

When the utilities were the only game in town... the sky was the limit... some have said the death spiral has begun as more home become efficient and alternative onsite generation becomes main stream...

Stock up on a couple heavy duty extension cords and commercial water hoses...

I manage apartments that have individual water meters... the water company now charges a $40 account fee plus 60 days of "Service" without a drop of water flow costs a minimum of $120...

For clean and show... I just run a garden hose for the few gallons needed with account holder permission and $10

The water company has become conniving in that they will not turn the service off when a tenant vacates and should "ANY" water usage show on the meter... it simply bills the owner full charges... this is why I have to turn off the main supply valve.

Had a home that was vacant better part of a year... owners were not sure if they were going to sell or rent... anyway... $21 of water flowed through the pipes when a toilet flapper got hung up... water company wanted $900 in back charges for $21 of water... told them to pull the meter because it was not going to happen... after a couple of weeks they offered to settle for one billing cycle and $21... not happy about it but $140 is better than $900.

It would be so simple if the water company simply turned off the service instead of leaving it on as a "Convenience"

 

[Redneck in training]

I think future of home energy storage will be ultra-capacitors. They have too low energy density per volume for cars but their larger size is not an issue for stationary use. They are cheaper than batteries, are not made from expensive materials but graphene or carbon nanotubes, can have virtually unlimited number of charge/discharge cycles and can be discharged to zero. Charge/discharge efficiency is above 95%.
Ultracapacitor Breakthrough May Recharge Energy Storage | EE Times
or Google
ultracapacitor solar energy storage

 

[houstonscott]

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2014/09/Tesla-gigafactory-rendering-001.jpg.650x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg This is supposedly under construction now.

Tesla is just about bankrupt. It's just about gone. Google Tesla bleeding through cash. HS

 

[Scooby074]

Tesla is just about bankrupt. It's just about gone. Google Tesla bleeding through cash. HS

Do you actually believe that? Got any evidence? Or are you trolling again?

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Head of tesla met last weekend with their head finance guy, according to todays paper.

 

[tcreeley]

We can't afford to go solar - but I keep thinking of my neighbor up the road who built his house from the ground up - off the grid. He heats with a wood boiler and has radiant floor heating. He has a passive hot water system for the times he does not have his boiler going. He has a backup generator if he needs to recharge his batteries. He has all of the modern electric facilities - but there is no electric service running to his house, no telephone line either. He is semi retired and works as a maintenance person in the schools. The technology is there, but the how-to knowledge on the part of builders is not that widespread. We have a local solar contractor in the area- whose services he made use of.
He was determined to have nothing to do with the local utility.

 

[ultrarunner]

We can't afford to go solar - but I keep thinking of my neighbor up the road who built his house from the ground up - off the grid. He heats with a wood boiler and has radiant floor heating. He has a passive hot water system for the times he does not have his boiler going. He has a backup generator if he needs to recharge his batteries. He has all of the modern electric facilities - but there is no electric service running to his house, no telephone line either. He is semi retired and works as a maintenance person in the schools. The technology is there, but the how-to knowledge on the part of builders is not that widespread. We have a local solar contractor in the area- whose services he made use of.
He was determined to have nothing to do with the local utility.

Many of my colleagues in Germany have solar and can heat with multi fuel systems... everything first rate... most are engineers.

I'm afraid the average American I know would be lost... managing rentals for 30 years has proven this many times... it's like no one under 30 can light a pilot light anymore.

 

[Redneck in training]

We can't afford to go solar - but I keep thinking of my neighbor up the road who built his house from the ground up - off the grid. He heats with a wood boiler and has radiant floor heating. He has a passive hot water system for the times he does not have his boiler going. He has a backup generator if he needs to recharge his batteries. He has all of the modern electric facilities - but there is no electric service running to his house, no telephone line either. He is semi retired and works as a maintenance person in the schools. The technology is there, but the how-to knowledge on the part of builders is not that widespread. We have a local solar contractor in the area- whose services he made use of.
He was determined to have nothing to do with the local utility.

It all depends:
You can finance it. Interest rates are low. If you get a second mortgage the interest is tax deductible. Then invest the Federal 30% and State alternative energy tax breaks to index fund or whatever you are comfortable with.
Return on investment depends on several factors:
1.) If you are able to install new breaker and outlet you can most likely install solar system. Saves lot of money. DIY can be installed for about $1.5/W (after tax rebate).
2.) Does your utility offer Net metering and/or PV subsidy? If they offer Net metering size your system to about your yearly electric energy consumption. Your energy bill will be zero. There still might be some fixed charge.
3.) PV system will shield you from electricity rate increases. Typical increase is in average 2%/year but might accelerate in the future.

Example:
1.) 10kW peak DC power.
2.) Cost $15000 (after tax rebates).
3.) Produces about 14500 kWh/year or $1450 Assuming electricity cost 10 cent/kWh/ will result in saving $120/month of energy charge.
4.) 10 year loan of $21400 at 5% interest will have $227 payment.
5.) $6400 tax break invested in Index fund will gain (assuming 8% historical gain) $512/year or 42/month.
6.) Mortgage interest (1st year, assuming 20% tax bracket) $1020 year or 85/month.

In other words you break even.

Most states offer financial incentives not included in the example above. Iowa offers interest free loan for 50% of the investment and 30% tax rebate up to maximum $3000.

 

[SirReal63]

For us the biggest issue with grid tied is you are tied to the grid, when it goes down you do not have power, which is why we went off grid (currently grid assist) for the guest house, it will always have electricity and we will always have a place with heat, a/c, water and hot water.

Add batteries to a 10kW system and it adds another 50% to the price, add great batteries with enough backup power to get you through a week of no sun and the price more than doubles. It seems a shame to spend all of that money for solar to not have any electrical freedom, but I do understand people using it to lower exorbitant electrical bills.

 

[Tororider]

Tesla is just about bankrupt. It's just about gone. Google Tesla bleeding through cash. HS

Tesla Probability Of Bankruptcy TSLA Nasdaq

Doesn't look like it to me. They were in the past and Musk has admitted he thought they would go bankrupt in 2008.

 

[houstonscott]

Do you actually believe that? Got any evidence? Or are you trolling again?

Tesla Bleeding Cash as Model S Hits Delays | New Car Pricing Insider Tesla Losses Tesla has racked up $1.3 billion in losses since 2008 and doesn’t expect to break even until 2020. The carmaker has been blunt about the challenges and costs of high-volume manufacturing. In an earnings call with analysts on Feb. 11, Tesla CEO and co-founder Elon Musk said the company was going to “spend staggering amounts of money” as it delivers the first Model X SUV to customers this summer, builds the gigafactory for battery production and designs the Model 3 sedan, due in the second half of 2017. “If Apple is starting now it would take a couple of years to catch up to Tesla,” said Ben Kallo, a San Francisco-based analyst for R.W. Baird. “Even after a car is designed, the competitors will have to source batteries in quantity and cost. Tesla is a couple of years ahead on this front.” There’s another big challenge. This is a car we’re talking about. After many decades of building cars, even the auto industry’s venerable players like Toyota and GM have stumbled at the seemingly simple task of making all of their vehicles free of safety defects. Yes, I do believe it, when you don't make money you go out of business. Looks like Apple might buy them with petty cash. Hope Apple doesn't get involved with products no one wants, like electric cars. HS

 

[Redneck in training]

For us the biggest issue with grid tied is you are tied to the grid, when it goes down you do not have power, which is why we went off grid (currently grid assist) for the guest house, it will always have electricity and we will always have a place with heat, a/c, water and hot water.

Add batteries to a 10kW system and it adds another 50% to the price, add great batteries with enough backup power to get you through a week of no sun and the price more than doubles. It seems a shame to spend all of that money for solar to not have any electrical freedom, but I do understand people using it to lower exorbitant electrical bills.

What I am saying is that if the circumstances are right people can afford solar and at least break even. Cost of panels dropped significantly since 2011 while interest rates are low and the installation is simple enough it can be done by DIY. The freedom from the utility and 100% availability of electric power is different issue altogether.

 

[houstonscott]

What I am saying is that if the circumstances are right people can afford solar and at least break even. Cost of panels dropped significantly since 2011 while interest rates are low and the installation is simple enough it can be done by DIY. The freedom from the utility and 100% availability of electric power is different issue altogether.

Going solar is like buying all your electrical power for 25 years at onetime. For most that's simply not a choice. It's like saying paying cash for your house is much cheaper, true but most just can't. Solar designed into the home design from the start and rolled into a mortgage might make sense for many. Young people forging granite counters for solar makes more sense. HS

 

[SirReal63]

I believe in solar, or we wouldn't be going with it, but any investment that breaks even isn't a good investment. I don't understand spending large amounts of money with no gain from it.