Grey or Chinese?

[SteveM]

Let me try to get back to the original poster question - I think the jinma and dong fen (sp?) tractors currently for sale in the US market are of primitive quality and technology, where as the grey market japanese tractors from the 70's and 80's are of excellent quality. I have owned 3 20+yr old japanese tractors and they are tremendously well made, well engineered, and durable as ever. i have closely examined several jinma tractors and cannot say the same. Everything seems crudely milled, and flimsy in construction. I know there are those on this board who love their jinmas,and that is great. to each his own...I never liked the Yugo much either /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[EFC]

Since you have a long post I get to have one also /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

At one time I sold greys, Chinese (Kama, DF and Jinma) and Korean (TYM). I started with grey but to grow the business I took on Chinese then Korean. The Chinese tractors almost put me in the poor house. The amount of parts required to keep a few hundred of these tractors going is enormous. We were used to grey machines and didn’t prepare for the parts onslaught. We still have a dozen or so of each model we sold out back that were stripped while we were waiting for parts from china.

Half of the Korean tractors came back in the first year for repair. Clutches, housing cracks and electrical were the common failure. Tractors were under warranty for the customer but they were never happy about having to bring it in for repair. With that said that was over 2 years ago with a smaller company, I would feel very comfortable buying from Mahindra, Montana, Kioti or the like.

Greys have been our staple that we can depend on, less than 1% failure rates, I know if I send one out that it wont come back and if it breaks we can fix it. We do repair/prep them when they come from Japan, if we sent them out the door untouched almost all would come back. I have a much harder time finding parts for US tractors; we are constantly selling grey parts to fix US machines that have discontinued parts support. Mahindra35 was right on one thing though Vietnam greys are crap.

Not having ROPS used to bother me until I lost my first customer to a rollover, he had ROPS and a seat belt. Then I lost my second customer in a roll over who also had ROPS and a seatbelt. After that I realized human error is impossible to overcome completely, safety devices used properly can minimize the error not eliminate it.

Mahindra35, I can sell anything I want and I choose to sell only grey tractors. If they were half as bad as the daily rhetoric I have to listen to I wouldn’t be able to stay in business. Last month a customer came in and was looking at a tractor, he said he was at the Massy dealer and he told him you can’t get parts for greys (weird, I have never heard of a dealer making something up to sell a tractor….odd). This was the very same dealer a week earlier that bought a new Hinomoto starter from me to repair a Massy in his shop because the massy part was discontinued.

I want to start some new rumors so I have some new rhetoric to listen to…. Try this…. “I hear if you buy a grey tractor you can get butt cancer from the inferior padding on the seat” or “grey tractors are really aliens disguised as tractors” or “if you buy a new “real” tractor you can save a ton of money on your car insurance” remember you don’t need proof for these sayings to be true just say them enough till you believe them.

Iplayfarmer, give us an idea of the amount of money your friend has to work with and what he will be using it for (short term and long term) and then we can give you a more unbiased opinion.

Buck

 

[buppy69]

Great words, Buck

Eugene

 

[HGM]

Wow Buck,
I'm glad you said something about those seats /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif.. Good thing mine has an aftermarket seat on it to keep me safe /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Sorry all. I was out of commission for a few days over Christmas.

Lots of good stuff. Buck, I almost fell out of my chair from laughing by the time I got to the end of your post.

I honestly don't know how much my friend is thinking about spending, and I have no idea what kind of time frame he's looking at. I'll definately point him to this thread to read. If I get any info from him I'll reply with more details.

Here's what I've gathered so far... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Greys are good so long as you're in the right circles (i.e. you know where to go to get parts, etc.) I know I haven't ever seen an Iseki repair shop advertised in the yellow pages in my neck of the woods, but I've always done my own repairs on all of my vehicles. I also buy a lot of stuff online anyway, so ordering parts online is no big deal for me. The safety features are as they are (or aren't as the case may be), but nothing can keep you safe without using what's between your ears anyway.

Chinese tractors are a "simpler" technology, but they are solid. Parts are still sometimes hard to get for the Chinese.

Here's my question still... How is the dealer network for the Chinese tractors? If a guy bought a Jinma from Jo in texas and moved to Ohio could he find someone to get him parts at the new place?

Same question for Greys. I know I order all my parts through the mail anyway, but I don't think everyone does.

 

[bluechip]

Both Grey and Chinese have as much to do with who you buy from as what you buy. Parts availability for the popular brands of Chinese tractors are already very good in US and growing rapidly. These parts are supplied to US directly from the manufacturers in China, who have no qualms about selling into USA. I have had only one Chinese manufacturer not want to sell to me becouse of a conflicting relationship with a major US importer. Most of the major Japanese tractor companies that are still in business are captive, at least in USA market, by a "major" brand and so try NOT to support grey market product sales in US. Kubota and Yanmar in particular have gone to great lengths to try to curb grey sales.

It is probably a good idea to assume that the parts will have to come from the same supply channel as the tractor. If you buy from a guy selling off a trailer in a wal mart parking lot, you may have trouble. IF your dealer has an established market presence, he will likely be there to get parts for you, be it Chinese or Grey.

You will get a whole new set of opinions on Chinese tractors if you ask the owners in the Chinese tractor section.

 

[EFC]

Ditto on what chip said.

Parts for the Chinese machines are available and there is a bunch of people doing nothing but selling parts. Parts prices tend to be a bit more reasonable, also. We have a late model big three model in the shop that just got its new 1100.00 starter and it required a real mechanic to change it out. With a Jinma or the like you will most likely have to replace the starter but you can do it in 20 min and it will be under 200.00. Is it a comparable quality??.. no, but it will start your tractor.

There is a grey and Chinese reseller within a few hundred miles almost anywhere you are in the country. I would bet less than half do actual repairs but all can get parts. The major suppliers of parts like www.jinmaparts.com do it better though. I think you will soon see the same type of warehouse for Kama parts. Where there is a need somebody with ambition will step up to the plate and Kama has a huge customer base in the US to take advantage of. As for greys we are getting parts from other sources than Japan, OEM parts that we can’t cross to a US part are being sent to China for reproduction.

The reason I asked what your friend needs it for is because Chinese machines are very heavy for their hp and even an 18hp Jinma in tight places is an albatross. If he is pulling a plow or has to move heavy objects the Chinese machine can have an advantage. If it is used in commercial daily work that puts food on the table then I personally wouldn’t look at either.

Buck

 

[kenmac]

The dealer that I bought from sells jinma (Chinese) & yanmar(grey) . When I asked him which tractor I should buy ,he pointed to the yanmars .

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Interesting your comment about the size vs. hp for the Chinese tractors. That was my observation when I bought mine. I test drove the 20 hp Jinma and then my 18 hp Iseki. The Iinma took the whole yard to turn around in when the Iseki did it on a dime (o.k. maybe a quarter). Honestly, one of the main reasons for my decision to buy the smaller grey vs. the larger Chinese was the turning radius.

Of course on the other hand now that winter has set in I am looking for weight to put on my tractor so that it will handle the box scraper a little better.

I know that my friend won't be using it for anything other than hobby work, similar to me.

 

[Paddy]

Iplay,

I bought my KAMA 454 from Artrac/BlueChip. You get a lot of hard working Iron for the money. The dealer is everything. Even though Chip is 600+ miles away, he's always there to answer my questions, and parts in a few days. I looked at greys and know they have the quality.

In summary, Grey or China, a good dealer is key.

Bloomington, In
Patrick

 

[MrFixit]

If you haven't made a decision as of yet I would like to add my 2 cents.

Purchasing a used vehicle (Tractor) has many risks. Purchasing a Chinese tractor also has some risks. But both risks are entirely different. If buying a used tractor I would like to know a few things that I'm sure there is no answer for:

Why is the original owner getting rid of it?
Have all the Lubricants been changes and kept to proper levels.
Has there ever been any failures due to low or contaminated lubricants.
Has there ever been an overheat condition that may lead to warping.
Was the tractor abused by taking on bigger tasks than it was designed for.
Has the drivetrain been stressed because terrain or load issues? On and On...

I have been very tempted to buy a perfect looking grey but I just had no information on it's history. Although the chinese tractors are somewhat new to the US I went with one anyway. Mostly because I know the history of the tractor, it's a virgin!

Tim

 

[LMTC]

Oh, get a grip. While you cannot know the history of any individual grey market tractor, the overall history & performance of the units sold by reputable dealers is nothing short of stellar. The overall history of the Chinese tractors, while seemingly improving slightly, is still not good. Knowing the "history" of a new Yugo didn't make it a good car. The difference in beginning quality levels from a grey Yanmar when new to a new Chinese tractor is more than I can even express. The difference in quality between a used grey Yanmar and a new Chinese tractor is still profound.

 

[Mickey_Fx]

I wish you well with your purchase but from your comments your knowledge on both gray market and Chinese tractors needs to grow.

The grays from Japan are mostly makes from well known manufacturers with well established track records. In Japan there is a financial incentive from the Gov to replace used equipment so there is not much of a market for used products so they are exported. Most of these tractors have spent their life running a tiller in a rice patty for a few weeks in the spring. Not especially hard work. The exported grays have a rating system established to help define the current condition. Also several of these Co's have been making compact models for U.S. Co's for more than 20 yrs. You also may find getting parts are easier for these tracotrs than a Chinese made one.

Personally, I've been to China several times on business visiting various Co's. You can find common designs of products being built by numerous Co's. All the products may look the same buy one Co can be a world class mfgr and the next can be something on the order of a shade tree operation, something you might not want even if given to you. On this side of the pond and if you're not too wise in the area of manufacturing, you won't know which kind of Co made your item until you've have owned it for some period.

Virgin JUNK is not a winner in my book. As I said, I wish you well in your purchase and hope it serves you well for yrs.

 

[rlee6]

Paddy,
I am in the same place as you are, weighing new Chinese against used Japanese. They are about the same in price.

I think we eventually have to make a decision on our own. Hear from as many as you can. Some may be biased for one, and others for the others.

You may want to read EFC's post in the next door (Chinese forum) on greys. I hope you to make a rewarding decision soon.

 

[buppy69]

The price being about the same on a used Japanese tractor and a new Chinese tractor tells you something about their quality right there. The Chinese know what their tractors are worth (the same as a 20 year old grey)!

Eugene

 

[YanmarFever]

Why do Chinese tractors look like they are built like a tank?

The reason is: A heat treating furnace requires A LOT of electricity (my fathers biss.) and in China electricity is in high demand & at a premium $$. Only the govt. has the facilities with the energy required to heat treat in mass production.

So whats the next best thing to do if you are a manufacturer?
You throw more steel at it & hope it wont brake. If you think this is a bunch of bull, test the chinese metal compared to any Japanese or American steel on the rockwell scale, your jaw will hit the floor when you see the difference.
Im not putting down the chinese machines, Im just pointing out why the price is so low, (you get what you pay for)

How many professional mechanics use chinese wrenches ? 0
Why ? because they are not heat treated, they slip & break.

Now there are those people in this world that will settle for a lesser quality because of the price. You usually see them at the repair shops ! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[YanmarFever]

We bought a stainless steel BBQ. at costco yesterday, After we got it home & assembled I noticed a made in china sticker on it. So we fired it up & put it thru all the operations and it cooks great ! nice fit & finish and everything works on it. my shop radio the same (china) and it works great. My car, truck, or tractor is where I draw the line. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[boat_guy]

Just remember this:

The world said the exact same things about the Japanese, Koreans, Indians etc. years ago that a lot of people are saying about the Chinese quality. It is just a matter of time!

Where do you think a lot of parts come from in these new name brand tractors? It isn't Japan!

Boat guy

 

[rlee6]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ( You throw more steel at it & hope it wont brake. If you think this is a bunch of bull, test the chinese metal compared to any Japanese or American steel on the rockwell scale, your jaw will hit the floor when you see the difference.))</font>

Do you have numbers that you can pass on to me? I mean a real case comparison? I am a metallurgical engineer, in case you wonder why I ask.

China is sending rockets to the space and has atomic bombs. They must have the technologies of metal hardening, precision machining, etc, that they need to make good tractors. I don't know how much the technologies are employed by tractor companies.

I am certain Chinese gears are heat treated. Without heat treatment, there is no way Chinese transmission can last even a few hundred hours of use. Question is how well and accurately it was done.

In my opinion one of the reasons Chinese tools are not hardened is because America does not want to pay $10 for their pliers.

I am in no way advocating Chinese tractors. I don't even have a tractor.

 

[mark777]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Just remember this:......

.............. It is just a matter of time! )</font>

I agree. But their time is not quite here. The reliability, design and engineering for domestic, import and grey market tractors is here and now.

I expect the Chinese to catch up in the years to come.