Goodbye Kubota, Hello Power Trac

[marrt]

Boy, this thread brings back memories, like:

1) I'm getting very old

2) Life really is short

3) What happened to Charlie, Mark, Hans and many others

4) Tractor debates are fun.

Many years ago, I posted a thread called "Chinese tractors aren't worth the risk" in the Chinese tractor forum. Back then, you could buy a Chinese tractor for about 60-65 percent of the cost of a normal branded tractor. With that purchase, you had very limited "dealer" support, a hassle getting parts, documented poor reliability, horrible resale value, etc.... I wasn't just being a troll...I wanted to buy a Chinese tractor but concluded it would be a big mistake. Conventional tractors have thousands of parts. That translates into thousands of failure opportunities with limited dealer support and a tough time selling the thing if you didn't like it. I made my post to counter some of overly positive comments by dealers and a limited number of owners that just didn't jive with my research. I wanted to make sure prospective owners really throught through what they were getting into with their the prospective purchase. I took a lot of heat in that thread but still stand by my comments.

A lot of people look at Power-Trac the same way. No dealer support, limited resale value, etc... And they'd be right to be careful. On the other hand, a Power-Trac is MUCH easier to work on that a conventional tractor. Further, you can call the factory up directly and get someone on the phone that will help. And, in a worse case, you can even take the tractor to them for repair.

I have a two year old Kubota L series tractor I bought for plowing and tiller work. I also have 2 Power-Tracs. For 90 percent of the stuff I do, I'll jump on the PT every time. There's SO many things a Power Trac does better than a conventional tractor. It's like combining an RTV, 4-wheeler, bucket loader, conventional riding mower, and Swiss army knife into one device. If PT were owned by Kubota, I'm convinced they'd dominate the small CUT market.

To be clear, I'm not saying this just because I own two or because I'm one of those people who just likes to be different. It really is a unique machine that hasn't fulfilled it's market potential. Of all my toys...Kubota diesel zero turn mower, Kubota RTV, Kubota tractor, and Power Trac, I'm still most impressed with the the Power Trac.

 

[airbiscuit]

... If PT were owned by Kubota, I'm convinced they'd dominate the small CUT market.

If they were all that, Kubota would own Powertrac. I'm sure they would look kind of cute in orange.

 

[MossRoad]

You just got an honest post from a guy with multiple machines as to which types perform best for which tasks. And you'll get pretty much the same thing from any one of us that have owned (and maybe still do) or operated conventional tractors and Power Tracs.

We have a local therapeutic horse riding stable. I watched a guy operate their CUT moving manure from in front of the many sheds that they had kids raking out by hand into piles in front of the sheds, so the guy could scoop it up and haul it off to a concrete barrier wall 3 sided bin area for storage/pickup. It was painfully slow. Like having teeth pulled. I went home and got my PT425, came back, and not only moved the piles 3 times faster than him, I cleaned out the rest of the sheds with it as well. That freed him up to drag the pastures, which the CUT did quite well at a good clip. He was very pleased with the performance of my little machine.

What I found was that while the CUT was quite a bit more powerful than my little PT425, it was increadibly slow traversing the area between the stalls and dump. I could make three trips to the pile and back to his one. Just painfully slow to watch.

Last winter, I cut out a maple tree for a friend, and he used his CUT to bring rounds to the fence and drop them over. Then he used it to load my trailer. Again, it was like I was watching a slow motion movie. If I'd have had my PT425 with the pallet forks, it would have been done at least twice as fast.

The point I'm trying to make is that while the PT425 is lighter and smaller than, say, the NH TC21, and it has nowhere near the ground engaging torque as the NH, it is ridiculously faster, nimbler, and more stable than the NH for the tasks that I have to do. If we start throwing multiple implement changes into the equation, it gets painful to watch.

How many of us have enjoyed swapping out 3pt implements multiple times in a day? Or having to plan doing all of your mowing chores on one day, then boxblade chores the next, etc... because we did not want to have to swap implements? And be honest, how many of us own multiple machines just so we don't have to swap implements. One's a mowing machine, one's got a blade on the back, one has a backhoe on it?

Call it want you want. Make fun of it. Poke it in the eye. Think outside the box. Think inside the box. Be one with the box. It just doesn't matter. These are very useful machines that work better than conventional tractors at many tasks. Find one close to you, give it a look over in person, hop on it, and give it a workout. If anything, gain an appreciation for what it can do very well and what it can't do as well as a conventional tractor.

Then think about the tasks you do most often VS the tasks I do most often. I mow the lawn. I plow snow. I brush hog a couple miles of trails. I haul mulch. I haul stone. I pull firewood from the woods. I (used to) maintain Little League ball diamonds all summer for my kids. The churche's ball diamond and grounds cleanup. Not one person that has seen the little machine working has been dissatisfied with the jobs it accomplished in a very short amount of time. Even heavy equipment operators that I know appreciate it for what it can do and like to give it the eyeball and threaten to scoop me up in their massive buckets or run me over with a laugh. But they all end up saying that machine is all right. That's just my little PT425. The larger machines are even more impressive.

Take a look. Take a drive. See for yourself.

 

[airbiscuit]

I actually do think they have a place, and in many instances may be preferable to a CUT. I don't however share the religious fervor that they are far superior to CUTs for all things in life. I previously owned a skid steer, and they are the Swiss army knife for construction. For me, however, a CUT fits my needs better. I wouldn't mind having a CUT and a skid steer. I also wouldn't mind having a CUT and a Powertrac.

I do worry about them being such a small player (parts availability, service, will they remain in business, etc.). They aren't even listed on Tractordata.com! Steiner and Ventrac are (under Lawn and Garden Tractors). It would be cool if they were acquired by a Kubota or Kioti. Imagine how refined and robust their engineering resources could make them.

I'm happy you love your Powertac. Enjoy your bragging rights. You may even bring a few newbies into the fold. I just want them to consider the pros and cons of their decision.

Bobcat skidsteers started much the same way. Some clever inventor types thought outside the box. Their early models were a bit crude, but they kept refining. They started as a niche manufacturer, but became a powerhouse. Maybe Powertrac will have the same story to tell.

 

[SpringHollow]

I don't however share the religious fervor that they are far superior to CUTs for all things in life. ....

I do worry about them being such a small player (parts availability, service, will they remain in business, etc.). ....

I just want them to consider the pros and cons of their decision. ....

I believe practically every PT owner will say they are not for everyone.

They use off the shelf parts - hydraulic shops can identify the pumps and motors but many of us can not. They are also the easiest tractor to modify.

That is all we ask, that people consider the options and pick what is best for them.

Mainly what you are hearing is the frustration that almost all of the criticism comes from people who have never used one and that criticism usually does not also include the realization that they are giving a semi uninformed opinion. Watching a video of one is not the same as using one.

I took the leap of faith and bought a used one never having seen a PT nor that unit because it was clear from their capabilities that they were by far the best solution for my needs. I have owned many CUTs of many colors and sizes over the years. Because of their capabilities and characteristics, I used them on average less than 50 hours per year. The first year i had my PT, i put 450 hours on it doing all of the backlogged things that it could do so well that the CUTs could not do well. For other people with other needs, those ratios might be reversed.

Ken

 

[airbiscuit]

I believe practically every PT owner will say they are not for everyone.

And then they go on with religious fervor to say that they are far superior to CUTs for all things in life. ...

 

[SpringHollow]

You are obviously not reading the posts accurately then

 

[MossRoad]

And then they go on with religious fervor to say that they are far superior to CUTs for all things in life. ...

No one said that. Not one of us. I believe every one of us said conventional tractors are better at some tasks, and PTs are better at others. It just turns out that when given the two machine types, for the typical tasks we do, one type is better suited than the other most of the time. It's just a fact that we've witnessed through usage, not a boast or brag. Read below, I'll mention some of the tasks better suited to a CUT that I've found. I'm not biased. It's just what I've observed through hands-on and trial by error.

Our fist machine was this IH2500b.



It's late 70s. Bought it in 1990 with about 4000 hours on it. 50ptoHP, 4 cylinder gas engine, HST tractor loader, 3pt hitch on the rear. Weighs about 8000# as it sits there. I ran it for about 10 years. It was a beast as far as power goes. The bucket could touch my basketball rim, so 10' height. I could drive up to any tree about 10" diameter or less, put that bucket up against it about 8-9' up, and pretty much drive the tree over onto the ground in our very sandy soil. I used it to cut in the road on our property, and brush hog between our rows of newly planted trees on our tree farm, until the trees grew too large to drive between the rows anymore. And I excavated a hillside to put in a barn foundation with it. I even used it to burry my dog. But I couldn't use it at my home, about 9 miles away from the farm. And I had to store it out at the farm, in the open, under a tarp all winter. It was too far to drive home, and too big to tow home.

I bought the PT425 in late 2001, mostly to use at our home, and the ballparks and church. I bought the 48" brush cutter, in hopes I could use it on our tree farm. Well, it fit in the back of my pickup truck with the brush cutter attached. So I ran it out to our farm a few times to brush cut between the trees, and started realizing it was faster than the big old IH for the tight quarters, got around on the sand better, and was generally more productive and a better use of my time. So I left the rows of plantation trees, and drove headlong into the brush. It ate anything in its path 2" or less in diameter. I opened up about 2 miles of trails 6-7' wide in an afternoon. I didn't have to drive over stuff before cutting it, and I didn't have to back the mower over stuff looking over my shoulder all the time. I only ran the IH a few times over the next 5 years, always opting for the PT425 instead. After 5 year of sitting, I sold the IH to a local IH salvage yard. So yes, this dinky machine replaced a huge machine, because the huge machine wasn't the right tool for the job, and sometimes you need Bruce Lee instead of a sumo wrestler.

Over the last 17 years of owning this machine, and operating it side-by-side with other CUTs at the same job site, it's outperformed them in the tasks I needed to do. And the CUTs pulled harder than my PT425 ever could.

Some of the tasks the PT425 does not excel at that I've found are:

It can't pull stumps.
I don't pull stumps, but you know what I mean. No ground grunt, so to speak. Because it doesn't have a transmission, and no hi-lo ranges, I am saddled with one range of 0-8mph. I could put larger wheel motors on it, and get much more torque to the ground, but that would sacrifice ground speed for mowing and tramming. It only weighs 1500# with me on it, so there's not much weight for pulling to begin with.

Since it can't pull stumps, it can't pull a dirt plow, either. Not enough torque to the ground.
Well, I don't plow dirt. If I did, this would not be the machine for me.

It can't dump over the side of modern pickup trucks.
This is a limitation to this size PT. It's not a problem for the larger models with higher lift. The lift height allows the bucket to go high enough, but not to dump without hitting the side of the bed. I weighed this problem out, and realized I rarely need to load a pickup truck. I bring mulch and crushed rock home, but I rarely haul material out. To get around this, I purchased an 18' car hauler trailer for two reasons. 1, to transport the tractor. 2, to be able to haul more material than I can fit in a pickup bed. The PT can drive right up onto the trailer to unload mulch, dirt, gravel, etc... directly from the trailer, and it can load the trailer from the sides or rear. You can't unload a pickup with either type of tractor, so the trailer is a great solution for both needs; transporting the machine and hauling material. No longer needing a pickup truck, we retired it, and we bought a 3/4 ton van, and later a Suburban to haul people and the trailer.

Those two issues, raw pulling power, and limited lift height on my sized unit, are the two issues I have to deal with. I weighed them out, found out they are not important issues for my tasks, and am good to go.

When or if we ever decide to put in a fence, I'll purchase the post hole digger. From other folks that use them on their PTs, they say they are way more useful than on a CUT, much easier to position accurately due to the side-to-side movement of several feet you can get with the steering wheel without having to reposition the machine. Also, they have power down, which a 3pt hitch doesn't have, and they are reversible, which a 3pt hitch doesn't have.

PT makes post pounders for the larger models, too, if that's the tool you need.

I'll also eventually get a trencher when/if we decide to build a house.

I may get a tiller, but I have a small, counter rotating rear tine tiller for my garden that works well, and I use raised beds that don't need much tilling any more anyway, so that's a distant possibility.

Having all implements out front, where you can see them... its fantastic for ergonomics, and safety.

Again, I have no bias (yeah, that's hard to believe). I'm just really, really satisfied with the performance of my machine, how simple it is, and how well it does what I need it to do. If I was more AG oriented, I'd probably have a CUT or larger in my arsenal as well. I just don't see a need or use for it in my tasks. Others do. To each his own.

Try one out if you ever get a chance. There's a few people here on TBN that did, and ended up purchasing something else, as it wasn't the machine that fit their needs best.... and we still talk to them even though they made the biggest mistake of their lives! :laughing:

 

[airbiscuit]

Ahhhh, you were doing so well until your last sentence, when that religious fervor crept back in

 

[cqaigy2]

Ahhhh, you were doing so well until your last sentence, when that religious fervor crept back in

He's trolling now.

 

[Oldoak]

You mean you actually took the time to read all that?

 

[MossRoad]

Ahhhh, you were doing so well until your last sentence, when that religious fervor crept back in

You know it's all in good humor.

 

[MossRoad]

He's trolling now.

Da Yoopers Fishin Wit Fred Lyrics

20 yoopers in A pontoon boat
Driven by my buddy mike
We're fishin out on the basin
For alligator walleye pike
Emil brought his tv
And routies beagle fred
He's too old to drive A rabbit
So he comes fishin with us instead
We got lawn chairs A poker table
An ice cold keg of beer
We're loaded down with so much stuff
Mike can hardly steer
Chorus:
20 yoopers in A pontoon boat
Fishin for moby dick
Da wife she thinks I'm working
& da boss he thinks I'm sick
It's A perfect day for fishin
Drinking beer and telling lies
Its A little bit like heaven
When you're fishin wit da guys
2. Mooch is showing dirty shirt
The proper way to cast
He snags ole no neck by da ear
Of course nobody laughs
Dabbers grilling venison steaks
Da flames are three feet high
His fishing hat is smoldering
But it keeps away da flies
Mungos on his fifteenth beer
He's standing by da keg
He don't know fred da beagle
Is going on his leg
(Repeat chorus)
3. A winnebagos bobbing by
It looks like noah's ark
Its full of terrorists from ohio
Fishing for freshwater shark
They say some fool forgot da plug
Their boat sank like A rock
So they launched da winnebago
It beats fishin from da dock
So we all run up front to look
And da pontoon starts to sink
Everybody but fred da beagle
Ends up in the drink
(Repeat chorus)

 

[MossRoad]

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Pfft.

 

[MossRoad]

View attachment 541493

Pfft.

If you ever lived and fished in Michigan, you'd understand those comments. Gotta remember, that song was written in 1995.

 

[cqaigy2]

My Dad was a Yupper, don't think he knew that song though. :laughing:

 

[marrt]

I think these "debate" threads are useful because they can provide a lot of information to perspective buyers.

I've got a 30' x 36' shop that I use for woodworking, machining and wrenching. It's got a large table saw, jointer, planer, 2 milling machines, a large metal lathe, etc... So, it's very crowded. I had a friend over who's a mechanical engineer and professional woodworker. I wanted his advice on reorganizing the shop for better work flow since many of the machines are stationary. His first question...what's the main thing you're going to do in here? I responded "there is no main thing, I do lot's of different stuff in here." He told me he couldn't help because optimization depends on some known objectives. He recommended making the machines mobile where possible and using portable work stations (e.g., Paulk workbench vs. a dedicated assembly table). In this way, I could optimize by each task as necessary without too much hassle.

The same is true with tractors. One should rank order the top five uses, then find a machine that safely and conveniently fits those needs. If your number one use is plowing or tilling, then a Power Trac isn't for you. But if it's mowing and bucket work, a PT will beat a conventional tractor every time. And, like my shop, if you want to do many different things with the tractor without much fuss, a PT is far ahead because the quick attach system allows one to change implements effortlessly (i.e., one of the reason's skid steers are so popular). Further, if your terrain is steep, or you want to let a kid use the tractor without worrying about a turn over accident, a PT is about the only choice.

I sold my first PT to a neighbor because I was getting a larger unit. He bought the tractor on the recommendation of another neighbor who had a Kubota B series. This other guy, literally a rocket scientist, thought the PT was much better for the stuff most home owners actually use a tractor to accomplish. Every tractor is a compromise between cost, safety, ability and utility. If you want to be happy with your purchase ten years later, like my neighbor, make sure you choose wisely. Otherwise, you'll soon be building a barn to hold all your different equipment.

 

[MossRoad]

I think these "debate" threads are useful because they can provide a lot of information to perspective buyers.
...

Yep. Learn the pros and cons of each machine, and apply them to the tasks you need to accomplish.

That in itself can be a real head scratcher...

What do I need to do, and rank them in most imortant order.
- Mow the lawn.
- Plow snow from the driveway.
- Haul firewood out of the woods.
- Landscaping mulch and stone.
- Clear and maintain trails on the tree farm.
- Mow some small meadows at the tree farm.
- Mow grass at the Little League.*
- Maintain the ball diamonds at the Little League.*
- Maintain the ball diamond at the church.*
- Help out with various landscaping/cleanup tasks around the church.*
- Other duties as assigned.
* items were when we had kids. They were higher up on the list, but got moved down since.

How much time do I have to do these tasks?

That's another head scratcher, especially if you've never done these things before. Find a friend that has, and ask questions. Keep some notes. Help the friend do the tasks if you can, to get a feel for it, what you like about his process, and where you think you could change the process to tailor it to your specific situation.

Then you have to figure out what size and type of machine you will need to accomplish those tasks in the time you have allotted for yourself.

This is when the research into machines starts, and you can quickly go down the rabbit hole on this one! :laughing:

And then, reality check....

How much is that machine and implements going to cost, and is it within your budget?

You sure that's the right price?

:laughing:

Then you may have to adjust your money budget, time budget, mental budget, etc... when the numbers come in. But you can do it. You may find you'll have to go with a smaller machine and increase your time budget. You may find you can afford that. And you may find you can afford a little more (congratulations). Nice! And you may come to the realization that while having a backhoe is nice, you can rent a small tracked hoe, which is more productive, for about $300 a weekend a couple times a year and be money ahead. Weigh that out with the convenience of having it on-site all the time. May go either way. Up to you to decide.

Anyhow, all of us have been through the process in one form or another in life, at our jobs, homes, etc....

Best advice I could give for a new tractor purchaser would be to slow down and take your time. Really figure out what you are trying to accomplish, and if you really have the time and money to do it the way you foresee it being done to your satisfaction.

Don't be locked into the thought of a traditional tractor because you may be better off with a skid steer, or an articulated machine, a telehandler, or two machines of different size and type, a dedicated mowing machine, etc... if one machine can't satisfy all or most of your needs. Take your time.

 

[majorwager]

Moss,
Slightly off topic, but your list did NOT include the time devoted to moderating the various forum topics under your responsibility. What does that obligation entail if I might ask? Others might be interested in those duties?