Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce

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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #81  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark, maybe it's just that most of us do have "conventional" tractors and don't know much, if anything, about some of the other brands./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif We're waitin' on you to tell us how it works out after you've used it awhile.

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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #82  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark, I think your wrong about many not being interested. We're lurking, not yaking. Please don't shortchange us. Your expertise with "enhanceing" and obvious in-depth investigation of what's available and what's possible sets the standard.

RCH
 
/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#83  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Bird - There's a lot in what you say. There's a lot more similarities than differences, though. So people may assume they don't know anything or that there's little of interest because of the differences, but most of the differences are just a matter of scale. For that matter, that's why those of us who own(-ed, in my case) orange watch with interest the exploits of those who are color challenged. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I can say that now that, since my EarthForce will be white, I'm totally colorless... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#84  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Ok, RCH, I'll take your word for it, especially when you put it so kindly. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I think that sometimes my comments come across as sounding like I think I know more about the subject at hand than anybody else, but I don't mean it that way at all. I'm just having fun. But, what you said ist true - I tend to over-investigate everything ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I've asked a bunch of questions lately about various things, though, and I've gotten some really good answers and leads, most of which I'm still following up on. A bunch of them even came in via private e-mail, which always amazes me, because then I'm the only one who knows they were looking for information for me, or that they already knew it. Anyway, what a great bunch! As for my pessimism earlier, thanks for the kind words, and don't mind me - I've been in a foul mood ever since shipment of my EF-5 got delayed... /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#85  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Rat - Yeah, I guess it's a little tricky - coexisting with so many different interests, backgrounds, equipment levels, usage requirements, etc. Yet, on the whole, we do pretty well. I mean, if you think about it, we have the whole gamut of equipment owner here - so it's pretty amazing that there's such a spirit of helpfullness and comerarderie here.

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #86  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

The comments made about being others not being interested is understandable. Mark just doesnt understand himself. Some of us cheerfully laugh inside as to the depths he'll go to modify and change while others are looking at and thinking, what is he talking about using a square link, grade 100, auto tensioning, CUT, 6N1, solenoid activated, 2.25" pistons, 19.5" with a roll radius laging or leading the front, regenerative circuit, rare earth beverage containment device, EGT, dual levitation self inducing double inclination double coil dual arm in pure genuine vinyl seat, etc. etc. Most of us who know you have more of a reason to visit "other" now. At the very least, for me, its always good for some cheer, Rat...
 
/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #87  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark. I personally cant afford an EarthForce, YET! I have an interest in almost any machine that digs, pushes, lifts, maybe even moves. What I really like is RESEARCH!!! To me there are two kinds, Thinking, and Doing, I love them both. I dont have nearly enough time for either. I am glad that you are around to help me with the thinking and the testing! Bob
 
/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#88  
Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Bob - I understand exactly what you're saying. I remember my first Kubota - it was the smallest L series they had at the time with the GST tranny. I was absolutely enthralled with it. Even though I had used a bunch of different kinds of tractors, bulldozers, etc. ever since I was a kid, I think it was that tractor that I caught the "equipment bug" from. I think it was the fact that it would do so much more than its size indicated. Of course, I quickly "upsized", then again, and again, and now, I've switched brands and even types of equipment. But every one of them is for doing the same jobs, just on a different scale. I got the Bradco 609 backhoe for the L3710GST, then moved it to the L4310HST, so there's a lot less difference between them and the EarthForce than there appears to be.

Of course, on the other hand, making the jump from the Kubota and the EarthForce was not without a great deal of trepidation, due to a large extent to the transition to a machine without a three point hitch. But, after literally months of research, I decided it was the best thing to suit my purposes. I enjoy research too, but it got to be tedious after a while. I think that's one of the reasons I almost bought a PowerTrac before I thoroughly examined the issue of maneuverability close to buildings, etc. - I was just tired of trying to find what I needed and ready to make a decision.

One thing I haven't mentioned that really impressed me about the EarthForce machines was what I can only call the "professional quality" of it. One of the frustrations I had with the Kubota was trying to get "enhancements" to work the way I thought made sense. An excellent example of that is the operation of the 4-in-1 bucket. If you ever read much of the "L4310 enhancements" thread (you deserve a medal! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif), you'll remember that I spent a tremendous amount of time getting an electric solenoid valve to open and close the jaws when you moved the rollback and dump valve the right way. Even then, after it was "as good as it could get", I was watching a guy run a big JCB 4-in-1 one day, and he was literally a "master of the machine". I just stood and watched him for 15 minutes or so, in awe of the way he was using the 4-in-1, and wishing I could handle mine that way. It had nothing to do with the size, lift capacity, etc. - it was just pure technique. Finally, when he took a break, I said: "Would you mind getting on my Kubota and showing me how to use the 4-in-1 like that?" So, he hopped up on my tractor, asked me how it worked, then started moving it using it a little. After a few minutes of playing with it, he shut the tractor off and said "There's a reason you can't use your 4-in-1 like I use mine: It can't be done." And that was that. Then he said "Let's go about from the other direction - you try the controls on my tractor." And you know what? I couldn't do the things with it that he could, but I could tell that, with a little practice, I'd be able to. When I climbed up on that EarthForce machine and saw that the 4-in-1 controls worked just like the ones on that JCB, I was almost sold right then and there. When I found out how reasonable the price was, compared to other things in its class, and all the other things I've mentioned in the previous posts, that was just icing on the cake.

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #89  
Ahhh... I think you are finally seeing the light!!

I think you are begining to understand!! If you want a backhoe,buy a backhoe! If you want a industrial loader with a real 4in1 bucket,then buy one!! You'll save yourself mouy $$$ aggrivaation and possible injury among other things,by buying something that was designed to do it from the begining,instead of trying to make something else do it!! Not everything is tweakable or should be tweaked no matter what Tim the Toolman Taylor thinks!!
 
/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #90  
Re: Ahhh... I think you are finally seeing the light!!

Sounds like some old sayings

You can too make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, or

For every job there is the proper tool
It is a hammer





Charlie Iliff
 
/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#91  
Re: Ahhh... I think you are finally seeing the light!!

Woodbeef - I think you're overestimating my intelligence, missing the overall big picture (as it pertains to my universe, anyway), or some combination of the two. I haven't seen the the light at all, at least not the light according to your gospel. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

In my universe, nothing is safe from tweaking - whether it should be tweaked or not is completely irrelevant - and, in fact, many things exist only because you couldn't tweak them if they didn't. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

From a practical standpoint, everything is designed with compromises in mind. Then, when the implementation people get involved, more compromises happen. Throughout the whole process, bean counters poke their necessary noses into it, and more compromises happen. Throughout the whole process, legal types poke their necessary noses into it, and more compromises happen. By the time it finally gets to the market, and I have a chance to buy it, it's been compromised to death, reduced to the lowest common denominator. Safety stuff has been added to the point people even dumber than I am can't possibly hurth themselves with it - compromising its usability. Features that could have been added for $5, but will cost me $50 to add, have been omitted because "not everybody would want it".

I am not "everybody". I am me, with my own requirements, my own experience level, my own work situations, and my own standards of perceived perfection. The reasons for a piece of equipment having been compromised to death are as many and varied as the people who had a hand in ruining it (from my vantage point), but it doesn't matter why it happened, you can only recognize that it did happen, then decide whether to live with it, or fix it. Now, I don't mean to imply that most manufacturers have a choice with a lot of the compromises they make, but others they do. Either way, I have to make a choice to live with their chosen compromises, correct/modify/enhance the equipment so it suits my needs and wants, or change my needs and wants to suit the equipment. I'm not happy with the first choice, and refuse to take the last one, so I'm left with the second one. I accept full consequences for my actions - if I break something because I tweaked it, I don't return it for warranty work. But what's the point of having a piece of equipment that doesn't perform to its full potential or, more importantly, do the job you need it to? I agree there's a lot to be said for buying the piece equipment designed to do the job you need done in the first place, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept involved here - to tweak or not tweak - merely the degree to which it's required.

Performance considerations aside, in my universe, there's something to be said for the uniqueness of the individual. I have learned, for example, that most people like coffee at about 1/3 the strength I like it. I don't criticize the convenience store folks who make it (even if I do privately think that most people think they like it weak because it's cheaper to make it weak so they've never tasted it the way it should be made - consider the success of Starbucks) - I just don't buy it. I roast and brew my own instead. Tractors, and just about everything else, are made the same way - what are the minimum requirements to satisfy 51% of the market?

Another example, this time specific to tractors: You'll recall another poster asked a question about a hydraulic pump that would put out one flow rate at maximum pressure and a higher flow rate at lower pressure, depending on the circumstances. I've been researching that issue for several months now, and here's what I've found out: It's easily done, and even has a name - it's called a hp-limited pump. Almost always piston pumps, they're set for a maximum input hp, and they use up to that amount, and not a bit more, to produce the maximum flow they can generate at the pressure currently required. You can easily vary the maximum pressure generated, as well as the maximum flow generated, within the design limitations of the pump, of course. They're almost 10% more efficient than the gear pumps commonly used. What's the catch? Cost. Instead of the $800 or so for a pump in the class the EarthForce EF-5 uses (what I could get it for, anyway), these pumps cost $2000. Assuming the factory pays the same thing for the pumps that I do (I don't mind giving them a huge break here), it would cost them $1200 more to provide a hugely more workable implement pump system. But it costs me $2500 to do it, because I paid $500 or so for the pump I get to throw away, plus I have to pay for the new one. So why not offer things like this as an option? EarthForce offers more options than anybody else I've seen, so I can't complain about them in comparison to other companies but, as you can see, it could be better. Again, all this is just to illustrate that, in my universe, tweaking will always be a fact of life.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention one other thing: I happen to like tweaking. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #92  
True to a certain extent.....

Mark,

I agree in the compromise context. Between the govt,insurance co., lawyers,and the bean counters what we do get is pretty well idiot proofed now a days,but often watered down. But you must remember that somethings are better off left alone,and a heavier duty example purchased.

Another good point that you make is the availability of options. Most people do not go this route,or even know it exists. Maybe the dealers do not know or care to push it. They might want to sell what they have sitting around instead of ordering what you want and need! Its too bad really because with some companies you can actualy put together a machine that will do what you want,and be built extactly the way you want it to be!! Just take a look at the unbelivable option list offered by Valtra for their tractors. A factory ordered machine is the only way to go!!
 
/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #93  
Re: Ahhh... I think you are finally seeing the light!!

Improve, improve, improve!!! I agree with McCupman. I always need (want) something improved. I modify everything. My wife thinks I am crazy, but she is from venus. I have a tractor, it needs a backhoe, which needs a thumb, the loader needs a 4/6/8 way bucket. This goes on forever. I had to start a side business to pay for all this. Where is the snow! Bob
 
/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#94  
Re: Ahhh... I think you are finally seeing the light!!

Bob - Just make sure you figure out a way to use the equipment on some of your wife's "honey-do's". Failing that, you may have to do it the hard way, and talk her into the things on your list, then convince her that they were her idea. It's best to keep a long list of such projects on tap, because you're right - it never ends. But, at least it's not money wasted, providing you use the equipment. A 4-in-1 bucket really makes a lot of things possible that aren't possible otherwise, and a lot of things possible using other methods a lot faster and safer. The same goes for a backhoe thumb.

Woodbeef - I've seen the Valtra option list once, and it is incredible - my kind of company. As I mentioned before, EarthForce is pretty good about options, but I would appreciate a few more. Oh well, it'll give me an opportunity to make mine unique. Less likely to get stolen that way - maybe.

That reminds me of another standard feature of the EarthForce - in addition to the key, there's a power disconnect that you can remove and the entire electrical system is disconnected. That makes it a little harder to steal.

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #95  
Re: Ahhh... I think you are finally seeing the light!!

EF-5 Performance
<font color=orange>Loaders Performance & Features
Bucket capacity
Hyd. lift capacity to full height 4850 lbs
Loader breakout 9370 lbs </font color=orange>

Mark,

Those spec's are impressive....!

My simple calculation determines you need about 3 Kubota's simultaneously digging to equal the same thing... /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#96  
Re: Ahhh... I think you are finally seeing the light!!

John - Yeah, the FEL lift capacity is over double what my L4310's was, even with the custom 2 1/2" cylinders, and more than three times the breakout force, which was still stock. Even 20%-30% increases in either spec is quite noticeable - I'm sure I won't know what to do with 200%-300%! It won't be long before I'm wishing it was 6,000 lbs lift capacity and 12,000 breakout, though... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I'm getting more than a bit restless waiting for my EF-5 to get here. It's been delayed twice now due to my custom-ordering a hydraulic FEL quick-attach, instead of a manual one. They've had to wait for parts from Bobcat, who hasn't sent them when they promised them several times in a row. I was even told a week or so ago that it had shipped, but it turned out to be a different one that someone thought was mine. I'm beginning to get a little frayed at the edges from the stress and strain of withdrawal...

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#97  
Re: EarthForce EF-5 update!

Finally, I'm getting some definitive progress on when I can pick up the EF-5. It looks like Dec. 17 is the day - I could pick it up next week, but that's when it fits into my schedule best.

Now for the best news: the way things worked out, I'm getting an enclosed cab in the deal, too! I may have to install a valve for the front hydraulic quick attach myself, but that's no big deal. The unit that was actually being built for me is still in the Czech Republic, because of the delay in getting the valve, so they're adding the approriate options I ordered to one that's already in SC instead of making me wait for another boat delivery. And, as it happens, I'm also getting a cab for my trouble! There's a heater but no ac option - both side glasses are completely removable, and the rear glass folds out and slides overhead, so it shouldn't too hot, but it should definitely be worth having on those cold days, if it ever gets cold here in VA again...

MarkC
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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce #98  
Re: EarthForce EF-5 update!

<font color=blue>It looks like Dec. 17 is the day</font color=blue>

Just in time to put under the tree. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Like I've been telling my kids, you'd better be a very good boy between now and then. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Along with the cab (congrats, by the way), I hope it comes with an improved signature icon. Getting kinda tired of that gray thing you've been using. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

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/ Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce
  • Thread Starter
#99  
Re: EarthForce EF-5 update!

Harv - Whadaya think? Is it too early to go ahead and start using
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? After all, my tractor is in this country, and I've paid for it. I think I've earned the right to the colorful sig, don't you? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

MarkC
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