Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce

[MChalkley]

Re: EarthForce EF-5

OK, time for another update on the attachments.

I've settled on D&E Manufacturing, http://www.demfg.com, for the custom stuff. After numerous discussions with Jim @ D&E, I've come to the conclusion that he's good folks. They're building a 78" wide 1.6 cu. yd. (struck) light material loader bucket, backhoe thumb, backhoe quick attach coupler, 18" and 24" backhoe buckets w/couplers, a coupler for the McMillen auger head, and a ripper tooth w/coupler, all to my specs and heavier duty than I've seen elsewhere, for less than I can buy off-the-shelf stuff for. And as if that wasn't good enough, their factory is less than 10 miles from the Summerville, SC EarthForce N.A. distribution center, and he'll have it all built in time for me to pick it up when I drive down to pick up the EF-5 and save the shipping charges.

I decided early on that I was going to need to have the light material bucket custom built, but the couplers and the rest of the stuff just worked out that way. The theory is that when I'm transporting all this stuff to and from the job site, I can put the auger on the backhoe, the two backhoe buckets in the 4-in-1 bucket, and the 4-in-1 bucket chained nose-in into the light material bucket, which will be mounted on the EF-5. That way, the whole bundle doesn't take up any more space than the light material bucket by itself would. Then, I should still have room for the soil pulverizer, pallet forks, Switch Hitch, and grader rake on the front of the trailer, if I build a little framework to mount the pieces to.

Sometimes things just seem to work out so well that it makes up for the rest of the time. I must've called a dozen different manufacturers and didn't get anybody that came even close to being able to put the whole package together. I found some items for less money (and less quality), but nobody that could do it all, not even counting the shipping savings. And then, to find out, after we'd come to a tentative agreement on the terms, that they were in the same neighborhood as the EarthForce distribution facility, well that was just plain weird.

But, as I said, D&E seems to be a really class act. If anybody needs anything built to spec, give 'em a chance to quote it. They really seem to know their stuff.

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: EarthForce EF-5

Mark, I've been following your posts with interest. The Earthforce seems to have a lot going for it. I was wondering though about the Ambusher mower. The information I can find on it comes from the New Holland skid steer web site, and it looks like the maximum cutting height is only three inches. The would be fine for a previously worked field, but not so good on rough terrain or in the woods. Also I was wondering, in general, how you think the Earthforce machines would fair in rough terrain. I'm considering the EF-2, which has 15" rims.
Dave

 

[MChalkley]

Re: EarthForce EF-5

Dave - The 3" spec is the diameter it's rated to cut, not the height. It's height is limited to the lift height of the loader, technically speaking, and by your common sense, practically speaking. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The Ammbusher can be had with or without a gauge wheel - I ordered mine with it. I'm not sure what adjustment heights are available for it yet, though - I haven't gotten my hands on it yet.

As for the rough terrain issue, I can't say for sure. Traction-wise, it will be superior to any CUT. From a stability standpoint, I suspect it will be about the same as a typical CUT. The backhoe raises the CG, but the smaller tires and other physical characteristics lowers it. I'm guessing the the two will about cancel each other out, and my local engineer friend agrees. Only usage will tell for sure, though.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: EarthForce EF-5

Dave - Check out http://www.ammbusher.com. It doesn't have much information, but it's probably more than you've got so far.

One other point regarding stability: with a backhoe, you can always move the boom to the uphill side when you're on slopes to move the CG more to that side to increase stability. In fact, the EarthForce machines have a boom "transport" lock that will hold it in the left, right, or center positon. Most backhoes lock only in the center position.

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: EarthForce EF-5

Thanks Mark. The Ammbusher looks great for the trail work I have in mind, and I'll be very interested in your experiences with it. I'm trying to get more info on the EF-2 and 3 machines, but there appear to be no dealers in the upper Midwest. I hear that some Bobcat dealers may start carrying them next year, which, if true, would be great.

 

[MChalkley]

Re: EarthForce EF-5

Dave - Why don't you give Jason @ Folcomer Equipment a call? The number is in this thread somewhere. He's as knowledgeable when it comes to the EarthForce line as anyone. He not only sells quite a few of them, but they rent them, too. Not only that, but his pricing was the best of several dealers I talked to. Besides, no matter where you buy it, you're going to have to pay shipping to where you live.

I went to Folcomer's today. I didn't pick up the Ammbusher - until I get the EF-5, I wouldn't have a way to unload it - but I looked it over pretty carefully. It's extremely heavy duty - very well designed, good materials, excellent workmanship. It's a very impressive piece of equipment. If I had to compare it to a mechanical-PTO-style machine, I'd have to say it's most similar in construction to the heavy duty Alamo units you see DOT crews using. It's actually rated to cut up to 4" material, not 3", according to the most recent spec sheet on it.

MarkC

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Sorry I replied so late Mark, never saw this post of yours. The dealer finally emailed me after his phone number turned out to be bad. Told me to give him a call anytime to discuss the products. As far as a 3 pt hitch, I need one primarily for all the mowing I do here at my place. I have a 84" mower that gets alot of use. I will miss my International for its stability on the slopes. It does not have a roll bar, but rather then wanting to roll, it slides down the hills. Some places I have to go to the top and go straight down the hill in 1st or 2nd and skid down because I just can't get the tractor to stick on the 45 deg slopes very well. The Earth Force looks like a dynamite tractor, especially for landscape folks that need alot of mobility.

 

[ljh2]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark,

Do you know a ballpark price of the other units, specifically the EF-3 or the SSK? I'm not really ready to start talking with a salesman, but these machines sound very interesting.

Thanks,
Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Larry,

The only unit I priced that was smaller than the EF-5 was the EF-4, and it's about $37k. Jason @ Folcomer Equipment in Baltimore (410-247-7454) would be glad to send you some info and pricing, I'm sure. He's not your typical sales type - I'm pretty picky, and even I haven't found anything about him I can complain about yet. Now, the slipping of the delivery date for my EF-5, that irks me, but it wasn't his fault.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Another bit of info for those of you who have responded to me via this thread or via private e-mail and told me you're interested in getting more info: (At least, I don't think I've posted this already...) The new models are going to be EF-100 thru EF-600 to better fit in with Bobcat's model number scheme. The SSK, which stood for Skid Steer Killer, will also be renamed by Bobcat, I'm sure, for what should be, ahem, obvious, reasons. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I asked a factory rep if the new models would be 100 times better or 100 times more expensive than the old ones, but he said "neither". Also, the paint scheme will go from silver and black to white and black for, again, obvious reasons.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Pic of EF-4

Here's a picture of an EF-4 I took a month or so ago at Folcomer Equipment's dealership. As you can see, it's almost as big as the excavator in the background. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Pic of EF-4

Here's a pic of the dash. As you can see, it needs more gauges... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

MarkC

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Re: Pic of EF-4

Mark,
whats the button on the lower left? (the one that looks like a fat lady bending over) The one on the lower right looks like a can of beer. What kind of beer does it dispense and is it cold? Looks like lots of room for a couple of pressure gauges. I'm still working on that part. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Al

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Pic of EF-4

Al - The lower left one is a proximity IR detector alerting you to the presence of a warm-blooded creature (such as a fat lady bending over) near the tractor (fortunately, it's smart enough to not detect fat guys in the seat, er the tractor seat, that is...). This is a European tractor, from the Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia no longer exists, I was politely informed by an alert TBN member by private e-mail) - therefore, the beer is warm. The light on the lower right is to inform you that the keg is nearing empty.

Ok, now, for the serious-minded TBN members (both of you), the straight dope: From left to right, the idiot lights are: Glow plug, alternator, oil pressure, and hydraulic filter restriction. On the EF-5, there's also a "snail" light, which means the motor is in maximum displacement, low speed, high torque, mode.

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

SSK was skid steer killer? It sounds like you have dislikes of skid steers but having hundreds of hours on skid steers and combined thousands of hours on every loader from 4 yard articulators to skip loaders to compacts, nothing, will move material faster or quicker then a skid steer. We use them to move piles of gravel easily twice as fast as a JD 210 carying a one yard bucket. The compacts with hydrostatics used most recently at work, wouldn't stand a chance moving as much material even with their bigger buckets. When it comes to getting into zero tolerance clearance, its the only solution. The JCB I use with the 3 steering options was fantastically manueverable, but nowhere near the tight quarters working ability of a skidsteer (namely Bobcat as thats the only brand I've ever run) They are not ever going to be killed, but they will be improved on. I think they are one of the first to use hydrostatic drives. Just my 2 cents, I think the EarthForce unit will be a fantastic unit, but then anything that replaces the shovel in my hand is always welcome. Best wishes, Hank

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Hank - I didn't make it up - I just reported it. SSK really did stand for Skid Steer Killer. That's why I said I'm sure it'll be renamed, now that Ingersoll-Rand, the owners of Bobcat, have bought the company.

I don't disagree with you at all about the speed of moving materials (in tight quarters) with a skid steer being better than anything else. There are jobs that I have rented a skid steer to do because it's the best option, but I still hate them. With the steering options on the EarthForce, I don't think there will be anything I would need a skid steer for, unless the work area is so cramped that the machine is just too wide to fit - then a small skid steer might be just the ticket - but even then I'd probably just let somebody else do it.

MarkC

 

[Gatorboy]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Here is the page containing information on the [Skid Steer Killer]

It looks great! I wonder how much that puppy costs?

Regards,
Dave "Gatorboy" Hoffmann
Fallston, Maryland

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark, I did check out the Earthforce site after you had brought up the product. I saw the SSK, never thought of it as competing against a skid steer, still really don't. It will never have the manuverability of a skid steer which for the most part is where they excel over everything. The true beauty of the skidsteer obviously is in its tight quarters abilities which is why farmers pretty much don't need them, although they have been inside of semi truck trailers removing material. Another huge bonus is the giant hydraulic flow to run tons of implements. The 773 can put out 27 gpm, with that kind of flow, running a hydraulic hammer with some muscle is possible. Having rented many Vermeer and Ditchwitch trenchers, they are hard pressed to outperform in pure speed to a Bobcat trencher. Obviously I'm not trying to persuade you into a Bobcat, just speaking up for them since my experiences with them have been nothing short of fantastic machines. When it comes to excavating, folks out here are slowly turning away from backhoes and going to small excavators. Bobcat makes one of the cadillacs. Knowing little about operating backhoes I asked the fella that trenched our leach line system on a house we remodeled why a excavator over a backhoe? First and foremost was how steep the terrain was. It was steep I thought it was all going to hand dug. Nope, that guy took that little excavator down the hill clearing in front, spinning around and digging etc. He could not make it up since it was so steep bit he had his trailer at the bottom and drove it up. The line was over 1500' long. I was amazed. When he was done, there was very little evidence he had even been there, that he said is where the excavator really shines. The price is quite reasonable to. He said the model he was on went for about $32000. Anyway, as great as the skidsteers are, I won't be needing one myself and have settled for the Kubota L48, no hoe. The Earthforce price for the EF5 or for that matter, the EF4 was still far greater then the L48 and really not what I was after. However, If I were building homes or running a small backhoe service they would be real serious considerations! I mean its like a JCB with hydrostatic drive. I hope everything works out really great with your new machine and I know everyone will look forward to hearing about your experience, Rat...

P.S. its got to be reassuring to know that a great company like IR will be behind your purchase, that would have been a huge concern of mine.

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Rat - Actually, a lot of the farmers around here do use skid steers - for mucking out, which I find mildly amusing... /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, as I said, I realize they're great at maneuverability, and the hydraulics are extremely versatile. I still hate them. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

One aspect of maneuverability that I don't like about skid steers is the situation that crab steering excels at: working tight against buildings. While I know a lot of people are a lot better at skid steer operation than I am, I haven't seen many people who were good enough to operate them efficiently in that situation. And the only reason they'll work at all is because they don't have the flexibility of being able to have an implement on the back.

It's good to see you back - you've been gone a while, haven't you? If you're interested in my experiences in the EarthForce, I suspect you may be in the minority. I get the feeling that not many on this board are interested in anything bigger than the Kubota L's and their equivalents. I still think most of my modifications, the jobs I want the EF-5 for, and the attachments I'm using with it are applicable, at least to some extent, to most everyone here, but I'm beginning to wonder if most others here don't see it differently. Maybe it's just that TBN has gotten so big that most members don't look at the "Other brands" forum.

MarkC

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark, its kinda that way for me. Heck, look at the Kubota owning etc, its about weights on the BX or MMM on the BX or BX squeaks, oh well, they deserve as much time as me. Rat