Glow pllug wiring

[valley]

Greetings, When the weather is cold the glow plugs don't help much [I have a coolant heater]. I have seen threads refering to installing a heaver wire.
Question is: Does the new wire come from the battery with a new switch or back to the key?
My thinking is canceling the wire from the key and installing the heaver wire from say the starter post to the glow plug strap by way of a switch would be right.
What's your thought? Thanks Richard

 

[greg_g]

The more voltage arriving at the glow plug, the hotter they "glow". And the biggest problem with many Chinese wiring systems is the proven fact that too much voltage gets lost before even arriving at the glow plugs. Larger gauge wiring - and a glow plug relay - is the solution.

Mount an inexpensive Ford type relay - available at virtually all auto parts stores - somewhere under the hood. Buy also several feet of 10ga primary wire and crimp-on connectors sized for the relay posts. Locate the OE wire that's connected to the glow plug buss bar or jumper wires. Move that to the small "S" post on the relay. Locate where the battery cable attaches to the starter. Run a length of 10ga wire between there and one of the two large posts on the relay. Connect the other large relay post to where you removed the OE wire.

Job's done, you might even have change left from a $20 bill.

//greg//

 

[valley]

Hi greg, I just checked the wire going to the glow plug strap looks like 12ga. Still go with 10ga? I was thinking of a starter button. Have you done this to one of your tractors {using a relay}?

Just checked, don't have a relay on the shelf. Next time We go off the hill I'll pick one up. Thanks for the description.

 

[PILOON]

I'd use the 10 guage!
Deffinately use a relay as switches are rarely rated for more than 10 amps.
Relay coil will draw so little current that any momentary (spring loaded push switch) will do the job.

One idea could be to use a spring loaded toggle switch as it would be more rugged, however you would then be advised to install some sort of 'ears' or guard to prevent accidental activation.

PS; I did this type of set-up on an 8 cyl GMC desiel.

 

[greg_g]

Hi greg, I just checked the wire going to the glow plug strap looks like 12ga. Still go with 10ga? I was thinking of a starter button. Have you done this to one of your tractors {using a relay}?

Yes, I installed both a starter relay and a glow plug relay on the Y485 in my TaiShan.

The outside diameter of the Chinese wire may be confusing. Pretty sure they use metric wire, so don't judge the gauge by the outside diameter. It's the diameter of the wire inside the insulation that determines the gauge, the metric equivalent of 12AWG being 3mm. A lot of the wiring on both my tractors is the metric equivalent of 16-18 gauge. The OE glow plug lead is probably 14ga at best. I think the wire between the ammeter and the keyswitch might be close to 12ga though.

Anyway. Insulated 10ga primary wire should be available in any auto parts store. Remember, that the alternator is not contributing any juice during starting. So by using comparatively fat wire that is independent of the OE wiring harness, you're delivering nearly full battery voltage to the glow plugs (and to the starter solenoid when you add the 2nd relay).

//greg//

 

[valley]

greg, Re: the wire looks like 12ga braded not the insolation. Installing a solenoid and the use of 10ga wire sounds good. The wire would be much shorer and have a stright shot with less chance for loss.

 

[Turbo]

here is the formula for voltage loss.
just make sure your connection are clean and tight.

Voltage Loss Formulas

http://www.windsun.com/Hardware/Wire_Table.htm

 

[greg_g]

here is the formula for voltage loss.

Useless. Ohms Law does not take into consideration the shoddy Chinese connectors/lugs/plugs/paint/et cetera. Rather than tackle this with a scalpel, it is much better fixed with a hammer. And that hammer is usually in the form of a $13 starter relay and a little bit of 10ga wire.

//greg//

 

[Turbo]

Ohm's law has everything to do with it, It's the hart beat of the electrical system provided you know how to use it and understand it.
have a bad wire because of high resistance do to corrosion, bad connection, paint or a loose fitting, or 0 resistance broken wire or connection. blowing a fuse? chaffed wirer or shorted glow plug. All can be found with a OHM meeter or test light. Each component of the circuit can be tested and verified it's workability, but to suggest of throwing in a relay because you think it's voltage loss, paint, connection or what ever is bad advice, it could be the glow plugs are bad, in that case relay would not fix it. so find the problem and come up with the proper repair.

 

[greg_g]

You're preaching to the choir Turbo. I've got a fair amount of experience in low voltage DC myself, and have been down this road before. Personally I might add - having owned pair of JM254s back around the turn of the century, and currently a typically hard starting Y485 in my 2006 TS354C. You on the other hand, own one of the newer generation. Quality control has improved somewhat in recent years. So before you go over the edge here, I suggest you research this problem relative to the older models with YangDong (and some LaiDong) engines and the QD100C3 starter. What I describe has been a chronic problem with that particular combination for years.

Short of rewiring the entire tractor, the least expensive - and most effective fix for low voltage at the solenoid - is to add the Ford type relay. The same voltage loss is often present at the glow plugs, an issue also fixed with the Ford type relay. Common problem #3 is low charging voltage, fixed with a length of 10 ga primary wire directly connecting the alternator B+ post and the positive battery cable.

//greg//

 

[Bob Rooks]

I use calculations when I'm designing circuits. When I troubleshoot circuits I use a meter. If the problems are obvious why bother with either? In engineering there is a term called "cost effective diagnosis". Loosely translated, it means if the cost in man-hours needed to diagnose a symptom exceeds two-thirds the cost of the repair, then the repair is performed (or part replaced) without further diagnosis. Or (many analogies, but I like) "stop beating a dead horse".

 

[Rich Waugh]

Yeah, sometimes it just doesn't really pay to analyze a thing into oblivion. Just fix it in a way that is simple and, most importantly, effective. The relay for handling heavier current loads is a no-brainer, really. Sure, you can sometimes slide by without a relay, but since they're cheap and are expressly designed to do just what you need done, why not use them?

I'm going to have to split my tractor to replace a twenty dollar ream main bearing seal that failed. This is obviously a good time to do some other things that I should have done at the outset but didn't because I wanted to use the tractor, not work on it. My impatience has been duly rewarded. So now I'm going to be installing a proper headlight relay, better quality fuse block, better protection for the underbody wiring harnesses, some loader braces, etc. Livd and learn...

Rich

 

[Reg]

One thing you will probably find if you take the bus bar off the glow plugs is a few dirty connections - and YES INDEED, Ohm's law relates to the resistance that those connections present.
It is about current, limited by resistance, whether that resistance is in the wire or the connection(s).

I had my glow plugs and injectors out on a troubleshooting session, took the injectors for testing, one shop said they were shot, another said they were fine.
Bahh, horse puckey; I put everything back CLEAN and tight, problem GONE.

A GOOD relay and heftier wire MIGHT help, but clean connections are more likely to help more.
Of course, adding heftier wire and/or a relay will probably take you through a connections cleaning session anyway, so if you do that you will probably want to believe that the wire and/or relay were the real fix (-:

 

[greg_g]

It is about current, limited by resistance, whether that resistance is in the wire or the connection(s).

Again, can't argue with Ohm's Law. But that's not the point here. If adequate voltage isn't delivered TO the buss bar, all the cleaning in the world won't help. On my TSC354C I lifted the feed wire, and found only 8.7v between it and the negative post on the battery. Glow plugs don't heat well when they ain't fed right. Simply adding the Ford type relay and 10ga wire delivered the battery's full 12.2v to the buss bar

//greg//

 

[Reg]

Again, can't argue with Ohm's Law. But that's not the point here. If adequate voltage isn't delivered TO the buss bar, all the cleaning in the world won't help. On my TSC354C I lifted the feed wire, and found only 8.7v between it and the negative post on the battery. Glow plugs don't heat well when they ain't fed right. Simply adding the Ford type relay and 10ga wire delivered the battery's full 12.2v to the buss bar

//greg//

Well, you DO SEEM to be arguing with it (not with me)
(-:

There is voltage drop across a resistor only when current flows.
......err, dunno under what conditions you found 8.7 at one place and something different at another, but troubleshooting 101 says there was either current flowing or they were disconnected from each other and getting voltage from separate sources.

Anyway, yes the resistance can be anywhere - including the internal resistance of the battery, etc.

 

[greg_g]

Well, you DO SEEM to be arguing with it (not with me)

Arguing? I'm not the one trying to shoehorn Ohm's Law into this discussion sir.

So let me try this one more time. On the configurations that I've been describing, there's an OE wire that connects the keyswitch with the glow plug buss bar. That's the feed wire to which I referred. Lifting that feed from that buss bar - then measuring voltage from the feed wire to ground - demonstrates voltage loss TO the glow plugs; cumulative loss, through the OE harness and keyswitch. Finding as little as 7 or 8 volts isn't unusual. In these cases, the glow plugs simply aren't getting fed enough juice to adequately preheat the swirl chambers. But put a Ford type starter relay between the keyswitch and the buss bar, and the voltage TO the glow plugs jumps essentially to full battery voltage, typically 12.2 volts. Now the glow plugs can heat to their rated output.

Putting the same type relay between the keyswitch and the starter solenoid does the same thing - a statement which hopefully will lead us back to the reason that Valley started this thread in the first place! Or do you simply not understand how the relays get wired into these particular circuits?

//greg//

 

[Reg]

Arguing? I'm not the one trying to shoehorn Ohm's Law into this discussion sir.

So let me try this one more time. On the configurations that I've been describing, there's an OE wire that connects the keyswitch with the glow plug buss bar. That's the feed wire to which I referred. Lifting that feed from that buss bar - then measuring voltage from the feed wire to ground - demonstrates voltage loss TO the glow plugs; cumulative loss, through the OE harness and keyswitch. Finding as little as 7 or 8 volts isn't unusual. In these cases, the glow plugs simply aren't getting fed enough juice to adequately preheat the swirl chambers. But put a Ford type starter relay between the keyswitch and the buss bar, and the voltage TO the glow plugs jumps essentially to full battery voltage, typically 12.2 volts. Now the glow plugs can heat to their rated output.

Putting the same type relay between the keyswitch and the starter solenoid does the same thing - a statement which hopefully will lead us back to the reason that Valley started this thread in the first place! Or do you simply not understand how the relays get wired into these particular circuits?

//greg//

No shoe horning, laws of physics are immutable.

What I understand is that a given voltage on one end a resistor will be the same as the voltage at the other end if no current is flowing.
There is no voltage drop without current flow.

All the relay is doing is bypassing a relatively high resistance SOMEWHERE, probably the key-switch.
Nothing wrong with that, if it works and you say it does.

I just don't see why you are taking up a futile battle with elementary texts on electrical stuff.

No matter.

 

[Bob Rooks]

I had my glow plugs and injectors out on a troubleshooting session, took the injectors for testing, one shop said they were shot, another said they were fine.

Both of those shops have insulted your intelligence sir.
I will definitely question the integrity, intelligence, and knowledge of both the shops you took your injectors to. Did they give you a report indicating the pop pressure, leak-down, flow rate, chatter, and spray pattern tests? Is their test equipment in a clean room? Do they use ISO 4113 test fluid or just plain diesel fuel?
A professional diesel shop just does not tell you if they're "shot" or "fine".
I suppose they also said it was OK to clean them up on a wire wheel

You have a choice to treat your investment like an "overgrown air cooled lawn tractor" or a pretty nice piece of engineered equipment. It will reflect on you.

I'll bet there is a big Oak tree in the middle of their shop's floors? :confused2:

 

[Reg]

Both of those shops have insulted your intelligence sir.
I will definitely question the integrity, intelligence, and knowledge of both the shops you took your injectors to. Did they give you a report indicating the pop pressure, leak-down, flow rate, chatter, and spray pattern tests? Is their test equipment in a clean room? Do they use ISO 4113 test fluid or just plain diesel fuel?
A professional diesel shop just does not tell you if they're "shot" or "fine".
I suppose they also said it was OK to clean them up on a wire wheel

You have a choice to treat your investment like an "overgrown air cooled lawn tractor" or a pretty nice piece of engineered equipment. It will reflect on you.

I'll bet there is a big Oak tree in the middle of their shop's floors? :confused2:

Both were suggested by diesel techs who's opinions I respect, both are in reasonably modern and clean facilities, at least from appearances seem to have adequate business.
These are NOT garden shed operations.
The one that said they were shot gave me some other verbal techno mumble, I abbreviated/summarized that to "shot".
The one that said they were "fine" gave me a full report, with printouts that look vaguely like EKG pen traces (-:
I abbreviated/summarized ALL THAT to "fine" in my post.

I got the impression that the one saying they're shot were not at all interested in donating any time to casual walk-in potential customers and would much rather just sell me a full set of new injectors and send me away.

I know in some repair trades there is a significant difference in approach.
One way is to analyze for root cause and minimize parts cost, another approach is to replace parts until the symptoms disappear - and of course some mix of the above.

The techs that suggested these places might well have different experiences working with them, i.e. this may just be the difference between working withIN a trade and working withOUT.

No matter, my injectors are "FINE" (details omitted for the sake of brevity) and I have isolated two local test facilities as will/won't use next time - if there is one.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Nice!