geothermal questions and possible DIY

   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #21  
We have auxiliary heat on our furnace. With wind chills of -25 last winter auxiliary heat did kick in from time to time. Nice to have. We also have a desuperheater which saves wear and tear on the water heater. We have two portable dehumidifiers running in the house during the winter months but not during the summer months.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #22  
I am interested in geothermal for my next house. I found 2 online DIY geothermal supply sites while doing research, looks like I only saved the link to one of them. I haven't contacted them yet so I know nothing about them.

TERRASource DIY Geothermal Systems
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #23  
It was the naysayers on one of the geothermal forums that convinced me to do my own. Do they really think they are the only ones that can learn how to do it? Enjoying my geothermal and never went back to that forum.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #24  
It was the naysayers on one of the geothermal forums that convinced me to do my own. Do they really think they are the only ones that can learn how to do it? Enjoying my geothermal and never went back to that forum.
Good for you! Always a joy to DIY and be happy with the result!!! 👍
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #25  
I can offer a perspective on the geothermal set up.
Firstly: an air to air system is the cheapest to buy, but it is not the most cost-effective system over time, because the latent heat of the atmospheric air is lower than the latent heat of the earth-warmed water. It takes more electrical energy to get heat for the house out of the atmosphere than out of the earth, so it costs more for the heat captured.
Secondly: Geothermal energy from the earth is a constant, because the mean temperature of water from the ground is 44 degrees F One pound of water carries 1 Btu of heat per degree F. iI the intake water temp difference is 10 degrees warmer than the discharged water temp. The amount of captured heat you get is 100 BTU for every imperial gallon of water passing through the heat pump i. For a normally insulated (R20) home of 1500 sq ft you probably need 60,000 Btu's per hour, or 6000 gallons of water per hour. 10 imperial gallons of water per minute are required to get 6,000 btu per hour
All that the heat pump does is chill the intake water by ten degrees F and then it transfers the captured heat from that water into the house, usually from a radiator in the forced air circuit. 60,000 Btu/hr is the capacity rating of a 4 ton heat pump, give or take. To do this the heat pump uses a refrigeration compressor pump, usually electrically driven by 220 vac power running about 10 to 20 amps draw. That power requirement includes the energy for the forced air fan and the water pump needed to supply ground-temp water to the refrigeration coil from the well.
Thirdly, in hot weather the system reverses its function and passes 44 degree F cool ground temp water through the heat exchange radiator, where it cools the forced air that cools the house. This cooled air passes off air moisture as condensate to waste. This is a so called passive air-cconditioning system that requires only energy for pumping water and forcing air...virtually free AC..and it works very well.; I have just such a system in my home in chilly Canada. In 2002, heating oil was about $4.00 per imperial gallon and I used about a thousand gallons per winter

My total cost for my system all in was $14000, in 2003 CDN doillars, that cost included drilling and plumbing a 120 ft deep 6" dia. 14 GPH water well, a disposal well for the waste chilled water, and a 1 HP Jacuzzi three- stage submerged pump and all water lines made up of 200 feet of 1 1/2" 300 lb test irrigation hose and doubled SS clamps at every joint. It cost me $4000 (discount net)per year for fuel oil heat then, before the Geothermal system was installed, plus about 100 per month for electricity for all purposes. After the pump was set up, the total cost for energy per year was 2500 all in. At an est'd annual savings of about 4500 per year The payback period was 2.5 years
Fourthly, there are other savings from free hot water gained by the super heat removed from the refrigertion compressor heads by water circulation. This amount of heat would probable be worth about 400 per winter..there is no free hot water in the summer, since the refrigeration unit does not run then.
Fifthly, the air duct system is highly filtered air, so no dust in the house, but I need to clean (wash) the air filter twice a year or more That filter is a 40x 40 " electrostatic type adjacent to the big radiator heat exchanger, about the size of a big truck radiator. My system has been in service for 12 years without any maintenance expense, so far, and has saved me about $45,000 - 11,000 or about 34,000 dollars. Quite a bargain, quite a convenience and free AC every hot sweltering summer day. The "passive" AC is very effective and will keep my house below 70 Deg F when the outside air temp is over 95 Deg F.

A couple of notes:

The system must be designed to avoid energy bottlenecks, IE..use BIG air ducts.. at least 20" x40" for the main duct, that means for both the supply air return and the warm air, plus 12 each of x 8" circular lateral ducts to the floor vents and floor vents of at least 40 " sq per duct outlet, at least one duct per room. I used a common return air duct (a big floor register) in the central hallway rather than place a full set of return air ducts in every room.
A water well of at least 12 Gal imperial measure per minute flow capacity and water supply piping of at least 1.5 inch ID..ditto for the discharge water piping to waste, a one hp well pump, and a lift of less than 35 feet to the refrigeration pump. My cold air return ducts are the same theorectical size as the warm air ducts. Since the lower end of the water discharge hose is lower than the intake end, it is a syphon and requires olny a small amount of pumping power to operate ( for friction losses) saving wear and tear and energy losses on the submersion water pump.

There is a lot of ductwork and it takes up a lot of space under the floor, but the capacity of the ducts is a critical system requirement..too little air throughput will overheat the refrigeration pump and fry the system. There is also the capacity of the waste water disposal system to consider. there is a lot of water used in the space of 24 hours in winter...14000 gallons per day. I used a 25 foot deep by 3 foot dia concrete casing down to bedrock with a lid for my spill return, and my ground is hard sand..no clay. It works very well. My supply well is drilled into an artesian spring that flows 30 gal per minute and raises to 4 feet from grade. That well also suppies my house water system. I am favored by having plentiful good water and very good drainage, all of which was proven before I designed my system. The well never goes dry nor becomes turbid.

That is just plain lucky. Artesian wells like that are not a dime a dozen. That well has aswved me $50,000 so far and counting


My heat pump is manufactured in New Brunswick, Canada by Maritime Geothermal to my sepcs It is a three ton refrigeration compressor with a four ton heat exchanger, occupying about a ten sq foot footprint and being about 6 feet high. It runs pretty quietly too. This particular system has a very high co-efficient of performance..about 3.9. There are none better to my knowledge. The owner of Maritime Geothermal is Glenn Kaye, P.Eng out of Pettitcodiac He is a world reknowned expert. and the only recognized CSA authority on heat pumps in Canada. (In plain English the system is 3.9 times as efficient as a unit that saves nothing benefit over cost to operate (Air to air heat pumps work at about 2.0 COP in warm to cool air and at less than 1 in very cold air (32 degree F) at best) These type sometimes do not require ducts, just conduit and refrigerant pipes. They can be had cheap, but do not last as long as a good geothermal system will because the compressors run too hot.

The proof of the pudding is in the system, its efficiency and longievity without failure. The market name for my heat pump is " NORDIC" so far, in service for 12 years no maintenance. I would say that is proof.

I can recommend it unreservedly, in Canada. It is probably available in the USA, but I do not know that.

All costs that I have stated are true, but I did a lot of the labor myself: supply and install all plumbing, wiring and ductwork. Supply and install the heatpump base, Supply and install the well and drain sump.. Those saved me about 5,000. There was no retail mark-up because my friend and I owned a Refigeration company and we bought the stuff wholesale saving perhaps 7,000. We have since retired and no longer operate the company

The retail cost of the system, if contractor built, in 2002 would have been about $25,000 plus 15% sales taxes. The payback period at that cost would have been about seven years, but still a viable and worthwhile idea.

The only downside: It cannot operate on standby power My genny is too small, so I still have a standby oil furnace for when the power is out.


its good here, but it ain't Shangri-La

It must be said that there are a number of different types of "geothermal" heat pump systems. My system is called an "open loop" system because the water comes directly from a well and goes directly back into the earth. There are "closed loop" systems which circulate glycol in pipes in the earth. Closed loop systems require a great deal of pipe and area in the ground so that the earth is not frozen by the chilled glycol in the return loop, or alternatively, a large number of drilled holes that carry glycol in pipes in a vertical grid. Closed loop systems are much more expensive to install and not as efficient. Not everyone has a good well, or a good drain, so that is the reason for closed loop systems. In such cases an examination of the various "air to air" systems (with backup electrical heat) should be examined and analyzed for cost savings. Many of those on the market are of dubious value. IMO
 
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   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #26  
the mean temperature of water from the ground is 44 degrees F

Just a note. In open loop well systems, the water temps are relatively constant as noted. The biggest disadvantage of open loop systems is water pump power and water quality. Dirt, dissolved minerals and water PH are all factors that can require maintenance and/or service calls.

Closed loop systems are better in those regards. The disadvantage of closed loop systems is that even at 10' depth, the ground temps do vary seasonally, about +/- 10 deg on average. Also heating or cooling does cause the soil around the pipes to vary even more. This is due to the fact that ground is not a very good heat conductor, about 1 deg/BTU/foot. This means that in the winter you will chill the ground, and heat it in the summer. The effect is greater in the winter in 4 season locations. This lowers the efficiency, especially late in the season, but still better than a-to-a units. On my system, at the end of the heating season, usually March, I can see water temps of 29-30 deg. There are nights when the air temps may be in the 40's but the water is colder. Luckily this does not happen much, or for long,

paul
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #27  
Ground water temp will vary based on location.
Where I am it is 65*, jix stated 44* in Canada.
I remember visiting Mammoth Cave in Kentucky and the Ranger stated the cave was a constant 54*. They had a large shaft going to the Visitors Center that they used to provide AC just by circulating the air.
Once you understand the principles of how the systems work there is so much information available on how to make it work for your application.
If you have the regular mechanical skills there are no secrets! DIY will save you real money.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #29  
I have been reading up on geothermal with a view towards installing a horizontal ground loop system with radiant heat floors for the barn home we are planning. One of the difficulties, and advantages I am finding with an eye towards a DIY system is the nature of our property which is all sand (prehistoric beach for the glacialLake Albany), which lends itself for comparatively easy excavation of the trenches, but sand can cause issues for heat transfer when dry. I've read that basically wet sand is among the best for heat transfer while dry sand is the worst. One way I may mitigate that is by designing the trenches so that they correspond to gardens above and regularly water that area using a shallow well. The water table for the area on my property is shallow and the point for the well at existing house is at about 20 foot down. Still a lot of research to be done and I would like to see running systems installed in the area in soils the same as mine. The barn house will be insulated well using SIP panels, so I believe it should be feasible and a saving fund if I excavate the trenches myself. NG is available from the road 500 feet away from the building site, so backup heat should not be difficult to provide.

Also, I was thinking of building a greenhouse and moderating temperature extremes by installing a passive geothermal system which would consist of pipes buried to circulate air, providing the greenhouse with cool air in the heat of summer and warm air in the winter to extend the growing season in the Spring & Fall with nothing more than a small fan.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #30  
Same thing the contractors always try to push.

To size the unit for proper dehumidification, makes the unit too small to heat in the winter without back-up heat anytime the temps drop much below 30. Of course you probably dont see much of that in GA, and down there AC is probably more important than heat. Up here Heat is the primary goal.

As far as being too big to dehumidify....well right now the house has no AC at all. So a unit that is too big is still going to dehumidify the house more-so than it is right now.

The house we just built, I couldn't justify the cost of a geothermal system with the construction budget we had. Ended up going with a variable speed unit from Carrier that was only about 10% more than a standard single stage unit. System can vary it's capacity based on conditions from 40-100% (2-5 tons in my case).

Since it can drop capacity and run for longer for dehumidification, it works great in the summer. Then it can ramp up when it needs to in winter to give heat. We've only been in the house since June so we'll see how it performs this winter but thus far the house has stayed extremely comfortable and my neighbor with the same system has been well pleased for a couple years. Not to mention for a 3500 sq ft house my electric bill has been running $150-$160/month, right about what we paid in the 1200sq ft rental we lived in while building....

Granted, we did do the spray foam insulation with a tight envelope, which helps a lot, plus we added an ERV that will dehumidify as well so it might not be directly applicable to your older house.
 

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