Garden tractor or small utility tractor?

Ramairfreak98ss · Feb 3, 2006

I own a small lawncare/landscape company. I primarily only do a few MAJOR landscape jobs per year, major to me at least.

I have 2 already this spring, one involving a LOT of rotor tilling and mulching. Another moving around a lot of small pebble rock, mulching, tree planting and i need to dig about 140 holes for 5 gallon potted trees in tough NJ soil.

I was looking to not spend a fortune, since previously ive rented skid steers for the day. Its a big hastle to reserve them, look them over when done, costs of the rental etc.

Ive decided that its time to get a tractor of some sort. Im looking for multiple attachments, and not spending too much, say 10-15k tops. Id much rather spend 10k.

http://www.simplicitymfg.com/legacy_xl.php

My heart is set on one of these, a 27hp, gas or diesel Simplicity Garden tractor, im somewhat limited on space, and this would stay in an enclosed trailer most of its time used. I can buy a 50" rear tiller for it, a box scaper, and a dozer blade and possibly a snow blower for the winter to add to my small fleet of 2 32" simplicity 13hp snowthrowers.

Ive also looked at the John Deere 4000 ten series? Theres not much in between BIG utility tractors and garden tractors. Im assuming the 27hp simplicity will do what i need it to for the handful of times ill use it yearly. My main concern is that digging holes with a rear mounted auger. The simplicity says they sell a 8", im looking for a 12/18" or 24" wide auger if all possible, i understand they use more power the wider they are. Time is not of as much concern with these jobs. Ill sit there all day unless it can potentionally damage the PTO or equipment itself.

A very heavy 15k john deere tractor is probably over kill and would take up the better part of an enclosed trailer. The simplicity legacy 4x4 also has a small front loader i could possibly use for moving mulch and rock around.

This is my first post on this site. Thanks for all of your opinions and info you can help me out with here. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

IslandTractor · Feb 3, 2006

It seems the work you are describing could certainly be done with the Simplicity plus FEL. However, you compared that to the JD4000 series which is quite a leap. There are smaller compact utility tractors, often refered to as SCUTS, that would fit in between these two and you might take a look at the differences.

From my perspective, a Kubota BX series SCUT would have the following advantages over the Simplicity: 1) much better resale, 2) more universal implements (Cat0/1). 3) certainly more power than the gas version of the Simplicity. I have not compared the FEL capacity. The BX can lift about 450lbs. You could opt for a backhoe on the BX though that would take you over budget by a few thousand. You can get a post hole digger for the BX, not sure about the other.

Main point: don't make a decision just comparing the Simplicity Garden tractor to the JD4000 series. Look at the SCUTs by Kubota, MF. I may be wrong but I think even the 2000 series JDs are smaller than the 4000 but I don't think they would fit your budget.

One other tractor to look at seriously is the PowerTrac. www.powertrac.com The 180 or 422 would fit your budget. These are articulating tractors and have quick attach implements such as post diggers, FEL and mowers that a landscaper should find quite handy.

Birdman · Feb 3, 2006

That just seems a little small to me. If you were just a homeowner wanting to do stuff around the house it might be big enough, but you are in the landscape business and I would think you would soon break something, or just plain wear it out. The loader only has a 500lb lift capacity. That might be OK for mulch but it would not take many rocks to be overloaded. I think you would be better off buying a CUT. You will be amazed at all the things you can find to do with a tractor once you own one.

aesanders · Feb 3, 2006

The Simplicity Legacy is basically the same size machine as the bx 23 (or 2230 and new 24) Kubota. Neither has a serious advantage over the area. Both have a backhoe (is availableon the Simplcity). Both have similar lift capacities on the front end loader and the same category 3 point hitch. Both would probably due what you are asking for it to do. I'd probably give the edge to the newer Kubota as far as value for your dollar and overall toughness, but both are good machines

That said, since you are in the landscape business, I would seriously consider getting the next larger size machine. Something on the line of a Kubota b7510 or b7800. You will get a full category 1 3 point hitch. Higher capacities all around. And not a huge amount of difference in size. And prices not much more either.

SnoFalls · Feb 3, 2006

or perhaps a used (1000-2000 hour) kubota B21 ... I've seen 1000hr B21's for around 15K asking.

KentT · Feb 3, 2006

This is difficult for me to do, being a diehard Simplicity guy, but for your described uses and budget, I'd recommend you get a Power Trac. I think you'll find that gives more utility for your money, and likely would reduce (if not eliminate) the number of times you need to rent larger equipment like a skidsteer. The PT has 40 quick-attach attachments available, many of them designed especially for professional landscapers. Here's the size I have, but they have others both smaller and much larger.

http://www.power-trac.com/t8class.htm

BTW, don't discount the utility of the "mini-hoe" since when one is attached to an articulating machine like a PT, you simply turn the steering wheel to swing the bucket to the side to dump it -- it is not like a skidsteer where you must drive the machine somewhere to dump it, then drive it back. Not quite the same as a real backhoe, but the price is slightly over $1000 for this attachment, versus $5000 - $6000 for a true backhoe on a PT or sub-CUT. Best of all, it removes or reattaches in a minute or so. It gives me all the backhoe functionality I regularly need at a small fraction of the price.

Second, they are MUCH better than a traditional tractor for using an auger to drill postholes, since you drive forward to where you want it to be, rather than back it into location. Then, you articulate the machine to finetune the exact location you want. Visibility is much better, as is maneuverability. You have the choice of a smaller post-hole auger with a tilting head that handles 18" augers or a fixed-head one that handles 32" augers.

As I mentioned, check out the Quick Attach attachments designed specifically for landscapers. As a professional, I'd recommend you seriously consider one of their trailer packages. They allow you to drive up to the trailer and change attachments without ever leaving the seat of the tractor.... Check out their used equipment on the link above, also. For example they currently have a couple of used 24XX packages listed, complete with custom trailer for $17,000 -- these 24XX machines have true backhoes on them, yet they articulate for maneuverabilty and gentle treatment to the turf. An articulating machine does not scrub the turf like a skidsteer does when turning, and are much more maneuverable than a normal sub-CUT.

Finally, their hydraulics are much stronger. The 425's loader is rated for 800 lbs, versus 500 or so for most sub-CUTs. They DO NOT mow as nice as a Simplicity (no other tractor does, IMO), but they seem to do everything else as least as well, and many things a Simplicity simply cannot do. I own two Simplicities one size smaller than the one you're considering, with 46" tiller, 48" finish mower, 46" dozer blade, 46" belly blade, 48" box blade, 42" snowblower, and several more attachments. I also sold one Simplicity with a loader on it, in addition to an old Kubota sub-CUT with a loader on it in order to buy the used PT 425 and package of attachments -- which is one of the best decisions I've ever made....

I suggest you check out the Power Trac forum below to see what people do with them....

RalphVa · Feb 3, 2006

You should check out the Kubota BX series. They're about the smallest tractor that you can get with a backhoe. A backhoe might be better for digging your holes for landscaping. To run a big auger on a posthole digger, you'll probably need a bigger tractor. My neighbor used about an 18" auger on his JD 4310 to plant his trees.

For your information, the JD small 4000 series (e.g. 4010 & 4110) are the same weight as the 2210/2305. The main different is ground clearance. The 4000s are about 4 or 5 inches higher up (but the fixed ROPS on the 4010 is the same height as the one on the 2210).

I've a 4010 with 410 loader, LX4 brush hog, back blade, MacKissic shredder/chipper, old soil ripper from a JD M converted to 3 pt that I use for maintaining raised garden rows, carryall and 3 ph drawbar. Haven't used it much for actual landscaping.

Those rocks in NJ would present the most problems in digging post holes. Rented a 2 man post hole digger when we put in a fence around our property in NJ. We'd run until we hit a rock, move out of the hole to another while wife dug the rock out with a digging bar, then back to the hole to finish it. On my 4010, if I had an auger on it and hit a rock, the PTO drive would go into hydraulic bypass. This is what happens if I hit sometime immovable on my LX4.

Ralph

LBrown59 · Feb 3, 2006

( The Simplicity Legacy is basically the same size machine as the bx 23 (or 2230 and new 24) Kubota. Neither has a serious advantage over the area. Both have a backhoe (is availableon the Simplcity). Both have similar lift capacities on the front end loader and the same category 3 point hitch. Both would probably due what you are asking for it to do. I'd probably give the edge to the newer Kubota as far as value for your dollar and overall toughness, but both are good machines

That said, since you are in the landscape business, I would seriously consider getting the next larger size machine. Something on the line of a Kubota b7510 or b7800. You will get a full category 1 3 point hitch. Higher capacities all around. And not a huge amount of difference in size. And prices not much more either. )

When I got my tractor a B 2410 with a BH was right about 6000 bucks more than I paid for the BX23.
$6000 may be chicken feed to you but it was a big chunk of change to me.
Also I've done projects with the BX23 that I could not have done with a 7610 or 2410 in smaller tighter quarters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MY FIRST CAR http://chevy.tocmp.com/chevyscrapbook/files/kamp50.jpg
OUR FIRST CAR http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/chev6003.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***************

LBrown59 · Feb 3, 2006

( a*It seems the work you are describing could certainly be done with the Simplicity plus FEL.
b*I may be wrong but I think even the 2000 series JDs are smaller than the 4000

````````````````````````````````
http://chevy.tocmp.com/chevyscrapbook/files/kamp50.jpg
````````````````````````````
)
a*The FEL is the handiest gadget on a tractor.
I used mine to knock off dead branches on the trunk of a pine tree. Took about 2 seconds.
b*They are Sub compacts too comparable to Kubota and MF but they don't offer a factory BH on them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/chev6003.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

aesanders · Feb 3, 2006

(
Also I've done projects with the BX23 that I could not have done with a 7610 or 2410 in smaller tighter quarters.
)

Their are just as many if not more tasks that could be completed with the larger machines that the smaller sub compact size machine will just not be able to handle. Especially when you are talking about ground clearance issues and loader capacities. Not sure if this is the case for the original poster or not. I'm not sure what all the current or future jobs will entail. I would rather have the larger machine though. Especially if I had been using a skid steer before.

The recomendation for a used b21 or similar machine is good advise as well. You can save a good amount of money that way and get yourself into a piece of equipment that may have been out of reach price wise new. I have owned several different full size backhoes that were purchased well used. Good investment as you hardly loose anything when you turn around to sell.

JerryG · Feb 3, 2006

If you buy the Simplicity, I am sure that you will live to wish that you hadn't. It is a fine machine for the homeowner, but what you need is a machine that is capable of doing commercial work. I would suggest a Kubota BX24, a Massey Ferguson GC2310 or a Power Trac or something larger. The only problem with the Power Trac is that you have to buy all of you attachment from them or make them. But, all three of these would make a good piece of equipment for you. You could be able use any of these three for many years. This post may bring the heat on me, but for commercial work I can't see using a Simplicity.

Ramairfreak98ss · Feb 3, 2006

ok so the Kubuta stuff, it appears evne the B7800 with a post hole digger attachment only does upto 12" width, can i put a 24" on there or is that already too much for a 30hp Kubuta?

Three Auger Sizes (6", 9", 12")
Digging Depth 45" (1143 mm)
Can be controlled from operator's seat with 3 Pt. Hitch

SnoFalls · Feb 3, 2006

I think the tool for *you* digging holes for 5gal trees would be the backhoe ... (when using a CUT). It might take a little longer (setting up for each hole), but a PHD in tough soil would be tough going (especially at 24") witha CUT.

Ramairfreak98ss · Feb 3, 2006

Thanks for all of the replies guys. I appreciate it. As ive feared im more looking into the 15K+ range for a tractor.

My goals were to get done what i needed and possibly have something that can be widely used for tilling, box scaping rarely, maybe snowblowing in winter and possibly even mowing... for the simplicity model. Simplicity also offers $800 off which isnt much considering the amount, but also has zero financing for something like 36 months too. I cant beat that since i wont have to put all all the money up front then before this 2006s jobs start.

Anyone have any recommendations for sizes of the John Deeres? I have local dealers for simplicity, ferris, toro, JD. Not sure of any others. thanks

bandit67 · Feb 3, 2006

( I think the tool for *you* digging holes for 5gal trees would be the backhoe ... (when using a CUT). It might take a little longer (setting up for each hole), but a PHD in tough soil would be tough going (especially at 24") with a CUT. )

I agree. Before moving across country, I spent plenty of time digging in rocky Connecticut ground with post hole diggers, and it was horrible. By the time you were done, you didn't have a nice cylindrical shaped hole. Broken equipment, shafts, augers, etc. were common. For soil like that, I think a backhoe would be a much better option, and you will get plenty of use out of one in your landscaping business. And like others have said, you will need a pretty powerful (and large) machine to run an 18 or 24" auger in rocky soil.

I also agree that the SubCompact sized machines would become too small for you pretty quickly. It has for me, and I'm only a part-time landscaper - if I was doing it for a living, I'd definitely be looking for a small Compact. That way you can have the smallest possible size with the biggest possible capacities, and not end up taking so much time to get the project done (as it will with a Subcompact like the Simplicity) that you end up losing money on every job. JMHO.

weesa20 · Feb 3, 2006

I looked VERY closely at the simplicity legacy before I bought my GC2300. The things that scared me away from the simplicity including the lack of strength in the frame in comparison to the power that is available, esp with with 27 horse diesel. I felt like it was way over powered for the chassis and the amount of traction availabe given its weight. This may not be a problem if you will not be doing a lot of heavy loader work, but that is mainly why I bought my GC. Also, for less than the price of the legacy with 27 HP diesel, 3 pt hitch (which was extra), and FEL, I was able to purchase my GC. I think the warranty may not be as good with the legacy as well. The simplicity will mow better than GC so that needs to be taken into consideration as well.
My father has a JD 2210 and he is happy with it, he runs a post hole digger in MA soil with no trouble.

Andrew

IslandTractor · Feb 3, 2006

If I were you and was interested in digging/augering 24" holes, I'd worry about the midAtlantic/New England rocky soil and take that into consideration. The advice to use a BH in this setting is a good one. Powertrac makes larger augers for their big machines but I wouldn't use them where big rocks are common.

I am in agreement with those who are recommending machines like the Kubota 7510 or 7610 set up as TLB. BX24 might be interesting if you really have a need to stay small but the slightly bigger machines are more flexible. The B21 recommendation also makes a lot of sense though that is a much heavier and more expensive option. I have a Kioti C20TLB that is also comparable and somewhat between the two bigger Kubota options in capacities/weight. You can do an awful lot of work with a 20hp TLB.

The Powertrac option might not be quite as good as I originally thought given the apparent need for a backhoe. Despite the good bang for the buck, I think a pro would be frustrated by the inefficiency of the mini hoe. And, you are more likely to damage turf with all the moving around while digging with the minihoe compared to a true BH. The true backhoe on the powertrac does not have much capacity compared to the tractor BHs mentioned.

Clarke · Feb 3, 2006

Take a look at the Power Trac Web site under used equipment. Listed is a trailer package that seems to be custom made for you..

sg

KentT · Feb 3, 2006

(
The Powertrac option might not be quite as good as I originally thought given the apparent need for a backhoe. Despite the good bang for the buck, I think a pro would be frustrated by the inefficiency of the mini hoe. And, you are more likely to damage turf with all the moving around while digging with the minihoe compared to a true BH. The true backhoe on the powertrac does not have much capacity compared to the tractor BHs mentioned. )

While the PT backhoe on the 24XX series may not have quite the capability as a the sub-CUTs, the loader has much more. So, IMO that's a wash. Further the articulated PTs will literally run rings around a standard CUT or sub-CUT, with NO turf damage. He can't do landscaping work with a big heavy machine like a CK20 or a skidsteer without damaging the turf...

BTW, you can get from 6" to 30" augers for 25 HP PTs.

There's currently two different used trailer packages for sale on the PT site that have the 24XX articulating machines with a true backhoe on them.

Here's one:

http://www.power-trac.com/images/customerPics/MVC-027S.jpg

With this list of attachments -- besides the backhoe:
Grapple Bucket
Light Materials bucket
Trencher
Planter drill head
12" 18" 24" Augers
Stump Cutter
Tiller
Blade with rubber lip & steel lip
Power sweeper
Plugger
Spare tires
Trailer

Sounds like what he needs to me, for $17K...

IslandTractor · Feb 3, 2006

I mostly agree with you. The question is how functional the minihoe is for a professional. Otherwise the PTs have important advantages over the equal capacity CUTs for a landscaper working in someones back yard. If I were to do a head to head comparison I'd probably match the K7510 TLB against the PT2425. (though I love my Kioti CK20TLB, I would agree that for lawn work the lower weight of the 7510 is an important advantage) The FELs are pretty much even in lift capacity between the PT and Kubota though the 7510 will have higher lift height. The Kubota BH would be more powerful. With turf tires the Kubota would be pretty good on grass but still not as good as the PT. Advantage of the CUT would be that you could leave the BH off if you didn't need it for a job. Balance that against the swiss army knife versitility of the PT.

If the budget was higher, one of the PT trailer packages would be great for a professional landscaper.